SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Davies, 03-Jun-2005, 11:38pm
John,
HC series engines were fitted to 2 litre Vitesses, Mks I and II, according to my old John Kipping catalogue. But those had Strombergs, so unless Bonds had them, your SUs must have been substituted from something else. Late T2000/2500 had HS4s and latest HS6s. It is possible to fit HS4s to the Vit. inlet manifold by adaptor plates, or the whole T2000/2500 manifold will bolt onto a Vit 2 litre Mk2 head. BUT, the T2000/2500 engine was canted to the right (driver's side) and the manifold was slightly bent so that the carbs were horizontal. As the Vit. and I presume Bond engine is upright, this lifts the carbs upwards and they tend to foul the Vit bonnet.
So you can tell if yours has an alien manifold by the angle of the carb, or that it has the original by the adaptor plate. An HS4 is 1 1/2" across the inlet and an HS6 1 3/4", so you can ID those as well. The precise SU model depends on the car year, but as these SUs are probably NOT from the original car, that will be difficult. Dolomites and TR7s came with Hs6s too, and 1500 Spits had HS4s, but of course no usable manifolds.
I'm sure that you can get carb. gasket and seal sets and other parts for 4s or 6s, though most sites that offer them, like Rimmers, need to know the car and engine number. My experience of Rimmers is that their telephone sales people are NOT knowledgable. Unlike Canley, but they may not sell large SU parts. Maybe this site wil help you: http://www.su-carbs.co.uk/
There is (was?) a Haynes manual (there is one for everything now - have you seen those for 'Man' 'Woman' and even 'Baby'!). I have a photocopy, that I made from a copy found for me by my Public Library, so maybe you could do the same. It has enabled me to service several different types of SU carb, so don't despair, try repair!
John
HC series engines were fitted to 2 litre Vitesses, Mks I and II, according to my old John Kipping catalogue. But those had Strombergs, so unless Bonds had them, your SUs must have been substituted from something else. Late T2000/2500 had HS4s and latest HS6s. It is possible to fit HS4s to the Vit. inlet manifold by adaptor plates, or the whole T2000/2500 manifold will bolt onto a Vit 2 litre Mk2 head. BUT, the T2000/2500 engine was canted to the right (driver's side) and the manifold was slightly bent so that the carbs were horizontal. As the Vit. and I presume Bond engine is upright, this lifts the carbs upwards and they tend to foul the Vit bonnet.
So you can tell if yours has an alien manifold by the angle of the carb, or that it has the original by the adaptor plate. An HS4 is 1 1/2" across the inlet and an HS6 1 3/4", so you can ID those as well. The precise SU model depends on the car year, but as these SUs are probably NOT from the original car, that will be difficult. Dolomites and TR7s came with Hs6s too, and 1500 Spits had HS4s, but of course no usable manifolds.
I'm sure that you can get carb. gasket and seal sets and other parts for 4s or 6s, though most sites that offer them, like Rimmers, need to know the car and engine number. My experience of Rimmers is that their telephone sales people are NOT knowledgable. Unlike Canley, but they may not sell large SU parts. Maybe this site wil help you: http://www.su-carbs.co.uk/
There is (was?) a Haynes manual (there is one for everything now - have you seen those for 'Man' 'Woman' and even 'Baby'!). I have a photocopy, that I made from a copy found for me by my Public Library, so maybe you could do the same. It has enabled me to service several different types of SU carb, so don't despair, try repair!
John
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Jones, 04-Jun-2005, 07:48am
Hi John
Many thanks, that's very useful. I think I am getting somewhere now!
Okay, I looked at the set-up in more detail this morning, and here's what I found:
1. The carbs have no adapter plate fitted - they sit on studs on the manifold.
2. They sit very nearly vertical (dashpots facing straight up), and I only realised that they tilt back (towards the other side of the engine) by a few degrees when I looked closely. They are virtually vertical, however and don't foul the bonnet.
3. The manifold is different to the one shown in the Bond (and presumably) Vitesse manual. It has "Stanpart" on it (so we know it came off a Triumph) and the BL swirling plug-hole logo.
4. The carbs are 1 3/4" at the inlet, so I guess we have HS6s.
So, the question is, which 6 cyclinder car used a non-Vitesse manifold sporting two HS6s? I guess the late T2000 is the likely suspect. Any others?
And then, once we know the donar car, I can start a new search to find out exactly which carbs were fitted! And then I can order spares and make mine run lovely again...
Fun, eh? I feel like Sherlock Holmes!!
Many thanks again John, and any more help you can give would be very welcome.
Cheers
John-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Davies, 04-Jun-2005, 03:57pm
John,
The angle is only 7 degrees (I think), and the fouling of the bonnet is worse with a GT6 than a Vitesse - no idea about a Bond!
As SH said, when you have eliminated all the impossibles, the remaining, however improbable, must be the truth. There ain't no other six cylinder Triumphs! I think you must have a 2000/2500 manifold.
Unless there was a special Bond one!
John-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 04-Jun-2005, 06:51pm
Looks very much like the set up on my Vitesse - 2500 manifold and HS6 carbs. Here's a picture -
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Jones, 04-Jun-2005, 10:11pm
Hi Jason and John
many many thanks for the info. I actually phoned, then visited Andrew Turner http://www.su-carbs.co.uk today and pretty much sorted things. Jason - the set up is as your photo, so I bought two recon carbs. Andrew was very very helpful, originally wanting to supply the various repair/rebuild kits. But I thought "damn it" and treated the car to a new set. I also bought two ram pipes as the original Stromberg airfilters don't fit, and nor do the Triumoh 2000 ones. We decided to fit "BDM" needles and the associated springs.
The car now runs a whole lot better, although I am a tad disappointed as I thought it would be quicker off the mark, but this could be due to my set-up tools. I can't explain it, but the car just feels like it has so much more to give....and as though the diff is full of concrete or something.
Is it me, or (dare I say it) are Gunson tools a little bit rubbish? The Carbalancer seems to show different readings from one minute to the next, and the Colourtune seems to show a myriad of colours between orange and blue at any jet setting between 1-20 flats. Is it just me, or are both these tools telling me that there are other problems with the engine? Or maybe they are just, as I say, rubbish?
But the car is certainly running better generally.
Any comment are much appreciated, and thanks for your help guys.
JJ-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : David Rumens, 05-Jun-2005, 09:20am
John, If you are using free flow airfilters then your BDM needles must be used with Green Springs. Try this first though I suspect because you are using ram pipes the mixture is to weak over the working rev range and you will end up having to use BAE needles and with Green Springs in the end.
Trust me I have been tuning Triumph engines for 40 years!
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Davies, 05-Jun-2005, 09:50am
John,
I'd be interested in Dave's view of the carbalancer and colourtune, as he has much more experience than me. I am used to a diffent balancing tool, based on the same principle and colourtune colours are not as crystal clear as the leaflet would have you think. But varying readings on the intake flow AND the flame colour could indicate that you have a mixture problem due to an air leak somewhere along the intake manifold.
JOhn-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : David Rumens, 05-Jun-2005, 11:38am
John, The carb balance tool works fine if you remember to keep the gauge in the same position/plan as gravity will effect the indicator! The colour tune will give you a rough guide and though I would not totally rule out an air leak past experience tells me JJ present set-up will be running weak over its working range. (I have been down this road with this set-up a number of times in the past) When you fit HS6's and free flow airfilters on a standard engine it is not unusual to end up with a lack of torque at the low end, in many cases a flat spot and a general lack of go! You have to match the carbs to the engine breathing, larger carbs can reduce mixture speed, you have to get the needles and springs correct. That is what is happening in this case and the use of free flow airfilters will increase the problems. In the 1960's we just increased the CR (plus cam) to increase the breathing and mixture burn speed, but without 101 octane fuel we now have to take a different approach for road use. So heaver springs help and in some cases richer needles will be required.
As interest generally ram pipes will also increase the problem. These days I used Arden airfilters type 1103 and 1104 which are the foam type, can be cleaned and give a good flow of air. Much better than the paper types, I bought these from Canley and are not costly.
As for setting up SU,s - start with both jets on the bridge. Take each jet adjuster down by half a turn. Start the engine and adjust the jets down, the revs should rise. At the point where the revs start to reduce take the adjusters back up by two flats. If you then lift the carb pistons (in turn) with a penknife, a very small amount, and if the revs rise then take the adjusters up by one flat. If the engine stalls then take the adjusters down by one flat. If the revs drop very slightly but the engine continues to run then do not adjust. Remember only lift the piston a very very small amount. If you over lift the pistons the engine will stall. The CO should be around 4.5.
The take the car out for a run. When you get back take plugs one and six out to check the colour. They should be light brown. If black then the mixture is running to rich. If the plugs are white then the mixture is too weak.
Trust me Green Springs will overcome most of the problems. BAE needles will provide a future inprovement, but at the cost of the MPG!
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 05-Jun-2005, 11:42am
Jason,your set up is very similar to mine.However i've still got the breather pipes attached to the carbs, i have been thinking of getting rid of them.Have you blocked the intakes on the carbs or left them open.Also, (steady on here) what does anybody think of the oil catch tank that Quillers are selling?-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : David Rumens, 05-Jun-2005, 12:56pm
Do not remove the breather pipes if you have a closed circuit breathing system as removing them will cause the engine to sweat oil from every seal and gasket as a pressure will build up in the sump, there is no sump breather
The only time the breather system will give you problems is when the engine is very worn and producing a high level of oil fumes.
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 05-Jun-2005, 02:48pm
I'm not questionning your knowledge here David,i'm merely in seach of a few answers as i'm no expert on petrol induction systems.
Why would the crankcase pressure increase if the breather from the rocker cover was rerouted to say a plastic bottle?
Do the fumes that are sucked through not clog up the plugs and combustion chambers etc?
Would introducing a sump breather cause any problems?
I have no problems with the engine at all,just curious about things.Or should i just leave it as Triumph designed it and stop babbling on about utter rubbish.........insert....."smiley sort of face"-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Davies, 05-Jun-2005, 03:00pm
Adrian,
Quiller catch tank.
Hmmmmmmm. Looks very nice, but 800mls?
I know this is not relevant for a road car, but the MSA race regs say at least 2 LITRES unless engine capacity more than 2 litres, in which case THREE LITRES! (J.20.9.2)
John-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 05-Jun-2005, 05:09pm
Have you ever filled one up John? Anyway, as you've noticed, us "boy" racers don't have no rule books
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Davies, 05-Jun-2005, 05:58pm
Jason,
No, I haven't! And I don't know of anyone else doing so!
But the MSA rules are usually sensible though erring towards caution and safety. Racers can't argue if the MSA consider that catch tanks should be a big as that, but you fit what you like! I presume that the large capacity is intended to stop a blown engine dumping its sump on the track, which if you are following does tend to get your attention.
I note that the Quiller page describes these tanks as "large", and that buying one will mean, "No more oil-catch scrutineering problems! Suitable for race & fast-road use."
Sorry Quiller, you're just plain wrong.
John-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 05-Jun-2005, 06:13pm
I think if you were to fill up even this small one you'd be having major troubles! I guess "catch tank" covers all fluids, coolant included. Quiller, wrong? Surely not
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SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 05-Jun-2005, 02:27pm
The catch tank is the same as you can buy everywhere for a lot less Someone must
have bought a container load into the UK as they are all over the place. Check eBay but watch out for the foreign sellers with
silly shipping costs - make sure you know what the bottom line is, is item plus shipping and any "compulsory" insurance. There's
nothing you can buy at Quillers that you can't find cheaper elsewhere - you decide where you buy it from
As for the quality of the item well it's OK, whether it'll weather well is another thing. The fitting kit for mounting it and the hose included in the "kit" is mainly cheap crap, I'll be changing it soon, once I;ve decided whether to keep it all or not - crankcase compression issues seem to have been worsened by fitting it but I need to shake it all down and check it through before I pronounce it a success or failure!-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Jones, 07-Jun-2005, 09:51pm
Hi all and many thanks for "igniting" (sorry, rubbish pun) an interesting thread.
After chucking away the Colourtune, I had a go at setting up the mixtures the old way, and it worked a treat. I can't say that I have it bang on, but the car instantly felt better and discovered a few extra horses. It is better right across the range. What I think I need to do now is check the timing again, and then do a more thorough carb tune up. Plus maybe check the valve clearances.
One thing I have noticed at the moment is a tendancy to pop through the exhaust on over-run - when coasting down a hill in 4th, for example. I wondered about vacuum leaks/exhaust leaks or maybe timing. Sounds fab, but it can't be too healthy for the car.
Just one remaining question - regarding the ignition timing, the Bond Equipe owners' manual and the Haynes Book of Jokes (as my mate Dave calls it) state different settings even though the engines are the same. The Bond lump is a Vitesse lump, full stop. One quotes 7 degrees BTDC and the other 10 degrees. Any thoughts? I am running on a leaded head, with additive. Well, the car is, not me.
Thanks again for all your help guys.
John J-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Chris Taylor, 09-Jun-2005, 11:00am
Rather late in the day now since you have your carbs identified, but the question was asked "what other TRiumph 6 cylinder engine etc?"
I think what you may have manifold wise is an american market TR250 or TR6 manifold. From what I recall the TR6 engine is mounted vertical, not with the slant of the big saloons.
Popping back in the exhaust is not necessarily a problem, it all depends on how bad it is. My Herald 1200 always did so mildly when in optimum tune. Then it stopped doing so and when I investigated it turned out the diaphragm had gone in the distributor advance retard. Replaced that and the mild overrun pop returned as did a little extra urge!
As regards ignition timing, with an engine that is not in standard tune (different and bigger carbs for example), as well as with many miles under its belt and with 5 star fuel no longer available, I would not worry about static timing at all otehr than as a base point to start from to set up a new engine to get it running.
Assuming you have the correct distributor for your engine (and if it runs ok across the rev range you can't be that far out) the optimum advance is that which causes slight pinking on hard acceleration at low engine speed in top gear, with the engine fully warm. Floor the throttle at 20-30 mph in top and listen for slight pinking which should instatntly stop if you ease the throttle. Advance the ignition a little at a time until you get to this state. Ease off slightly if for any reason you think it is too far advanced.
I think it was the most recent Courier that had an article about running on unleaded fuel and I seem to recall Dave Rumens making a suggestion about changing the vacuum advance unit on Vitesse Mk2 engines to cater for current octane levels and avoiding having to retard the static timing too much.-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : Richard Burnham, 09-Jun-2005, 05:31pm
My Vitesse has twin hs6's on I believe to be a T2500s Manifold. Needles are BDQ and low profile Sprint tops ( My engines raised slightly because of pheonix manifold). I also get a light backfire on the over run. My ignition is currently set at 10 degree.-
SU's on Vitesse MKII
Posted By : John Jones, 10-Jun-2005, 00:16am
Hi Richard
Many thanks for the post. I set the timing today to 12 degrees BTDC and it seemed to help a lot. How do you find the car performs on BDQs? Mine currently has BDMs fitted.
Best wishes
John
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