Section : Electrical Equipment

Alternators, dynamos, lights, wipers, etc.

Startermotor upgrade

Posted By : Tim Bateman, 15-Nov-2004, 10:44am

So, the cold weather has set in, and my old girl (RMX ...F) is making her usual fuss of not wanting to start in the morning. She currently has a stock engine, i.e with standard Dynamo and starter motor. (for information, she is a 2L Mk1 Vitesse Convertible)
I am considering going for one of these high torque starter motor kits (from Canley) and would be interested to know if anyone has fitted one, and what they perform like.

Other ideas as to how to brake this habbit would be useful.

I am also considering the Alternator upgrade, to see if this will keep the battery charged better - I only travel about 5 miles to work, so she doesn't get a long run. Any one with any comments?

Thanks

Tim

Followups :

Startermotor upgrade

Posted By : James Carruthers, 15-Nov-2004, 11:28am

I used to have problems with my 1500 doing short runs. I upgraded the alternator to a modern A127 70amp design (straight swap - you just need the brackets from a car with an alternator) and it never went close to being flat again.

Also, depending on how quickly your car fires up - electronic ignition makes things much easier in the cold.

The high torque motor is probably only useful if the standard motor has problems turning over with a fully charged battery.

James
- Startermotor upgrade
  
  Posted By : Jason Chinn, 15-Nov-2004, 12:15pm
  
  I have used a trickle charge type battery conditioner for a few years now, park the car, plug it in (cigarette lighter) and it keeps the battery topped up. I originally started using it as a poor solution to a battery drain problem and just got in the habit. It does mean that if the car gets left for several weeks it is always fully charged when I go to use it. My current Triumph, a 6 cylinder Spit, had a hot start problem - tubular manifold and marginal standard starter that got hot and weak and wouldn't turn it over. I fitted a Canley Hi-Torque starter and it's been fine ever since. They are pricey and you can save a few quid with a kit to convert a standard Nippon Denso to fit a Triumph. I also tend to upgrade to an alternator as soon as possible too.
  These mods mean that starting is usually not a problem, unless I leave the lights on that is!
  - Startermotor upgrade
    
    Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 04-Jan-2005, 08:06pm
    
    Just to add a few points: I'll start with the technical things first - I've recently converted a Herald 1200 and a GT6 to alternator, simplicity itself and in both cases I simply adapted the voltage regulator 'behind the scenes' so the all connections still go to the proper connectors but the internals have been removed and at the rear the connectors are twisted together to link the wires. I published a photo of how this was done in the GT6 column in one of last years later Couriers, but will gladly repost the photo if required. The necessary brackets have also been shown in The Courier, I believe January 2001 and again I can post them if required for new members. The 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder brackets are definitely different.
    
    Secondly - I've fitted a hi-torque starter motor to the GT6 but can someone confirm that it requires the aluminium mounting / spacer ring as fitted to the original starter, or can it be used without it?
    
    Thirdly - I think some existing members need to realise that we do get new members who need to know things from scratch, that even some of us who have had Triumphs for years don't know absolutely everything, and that just occasionally that website link or back issue of The Courier can't be found when most needed. It's not uncommon to see Motoring Magazines, including The Courier, making reference to articles published back in the 1980s, and being able to order a back issue is not always the ideal situation when your car is in bits in the garage... Remember: those that can, do - those that can't ,need someone to ask. Help if you can, but remember the hurt potential of a put-down to a new and often uncertain member.
    - Startermotor upgrade
      
      Posted By : Adrian Lee, 05-Jan-2005, 00:32am
      
      Good answer Colin,in every way,the natural stupidity is particularly good and can probably be attributed to us all in some way!
      - Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : Don Cook, 05-Jan-2005, 02:16pm
        
        Hey Adrian
        
        Just seen your profile...who's that bloke standing next to you?
        
        Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : Adrian Lee, 05-Jan-2005, 06:16pm
        
        That is the buffoon who controls me and thinks he knows better...........bit of a git really
    - Startermotor upgrade
      
      Posted By : Tim Bateman, 05-Jan-2005, 05:47pm
      
      Colin,
      
      Good posting!
      
      Any pictures, information, etc would be very useful - My Vit is a daily driver, so I would need to complete the 'transformation' over a weekend, and it would be useful to know of all the surprises in advance.
      
      Thanks
      
      Tim
    - Startermotor upgrade
      
      Posted By : Jason Chinn, 05-Jan-2005, 09:37pm
      
      Colin, I fitted my Hi-torque WITH the spacer on my 6 pot. This is motor came from Canley Classics. It works great and cured a hot start problem caused by the original starter being far too close to the hot tubular manifold - once cooked standard starters don't
    - Startermotor upgrade
      
      Posted By : David Rumens, 06-Jan-2005, 09:07pm
      
      Colin, 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder block brackets are the same for the Dolomite, Spitfire and 2000/2500 Mk11 Saloon. Same part number i.e. 147899. But the adjusting brackets are different.
      
      It is only the GT6 block bracket that is different as due to the low bonnet line the alternator has to be mounted lower. The same can be said for the dynamo.
      
      As interest the 1600 Vitesse is fitted with the Herald high mount dynamo bracket. The 2 Litres are fitted with the GT6 low mount dynamo bracket. Common elements on the same engines.
      
      On the Vitesse you can use the Dolomite, Spitfire or 2000/2500 block bracket. But only the 2000/2500 top adjusting bracket.
      
      It you can find one the GT6 Block Bracket this will also fit the Vitesse, but you will need the longer GT6 top adjusting bracket.
      
      But you only use the GT6 block bracket on the GT6.
      
      Regards
      
      Dave
      - Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : Chris Taylor, 07-Jan-2005, 08:56am
        
        Regarding the various bracket options, you will need an appropriate fan belt. Not sure how many permutations there are, or what original Triumph fitments are appropriate, but it is probably easier nowadays to buy the belt by length.
        
        Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 07-Jan-2005, 06:19pm
        
        I agree Chris, the other factor is cars fitted with an alternator as standard equipment have a larger crank pulley. This is to increase the rpm the alternator turns over at and therefore improve the output at low rpm.
        
        But the larger pulley also means a larger fan belt.
        
        I guess there could be around 10 fan belt permutations.
        
        Spitfires/Dolomites used 1100 and 2000 Mk11 Saloons used 1088.
        
        Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : Ian Palmerino, 07-Jan-2005, 06:54pm
        
        I used a belt thats 1088mm on my vit 6, fits fine no probs so far.
        
        Ian
      - Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 09-Jan-2005, 05:56pm
        
        Ooopppsss... sorry, no offence but forgot about the Vitesse!! I didn't realise the Dolomite used the same block mounting bracket as the Vitesse either - never had one! I'm so used to working on either the GT6 or the Herald so tend to refer to 4 or 6 pot as one of either!
        
        Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 09-Jan-2005, 07:02pm
        
        Colin, no probs.
        
        Startermotor upgrade
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 09-Jan-2005, 07:36pm
        
        Colin, as interest the Vitesse was never fitted with an alternator as standard. An alternator option was offered on the 2 Litre, which was just a raid on the GT6 parts bin!
        
        However, as the GT6 low mount alternator block brackets are now rare there is no reason why the later and far more plentiful Spitfire/Dolomite/2000 Saloon high mount bracket cannot be used to convert the Vitesse to alternator.
Startermotor upgrade

Posted By : David Rumens, 15-Nov-2004, 06:23pm

If you are only travelling 5 miles to work with the use of lights this time of year means your battery does not stand a change. It will not be getting enough charge. Go for an Alternator conversion.

If the starter motor, starter solenoid, earths, wiring and battery are all in good conition then the Vitesse will start in sub-zero temps.

Before replacing the starter motor I would first check the above areas.
- Alternator upgrade
  
  Posted By : Tim Bateman, 25-Nov-2004, 01:52pm
  
  Thanks for the information.
  
  So what is the easiest/cheapest way to upgrade to an alternator?
  
  Do I go for the Rimmers upgrade (&163;99) or can I fit one from a Dolomite, and modify the wiring.
  
  Help and advice would be greatly appreciated.
  
  Thanks
  
  Tim
  - Alternator upgrade
    
    Posted By : James Carruthers, 25-Nov-2004, 02:06pm
    
    &163;99 is very expensive.
    
    Go to your local auto electrician and pick up an A127 - cost me &163;40 at my local one.
    
    James
    - Alternator upgrade
      
      Posted By : Tim Bateman, 25-Nov-2004, 03:18pm
      
      Do I need to modify the wiring under the bonnet?
      - Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : James Carruthers, 25-Nov-2004, 03:22pm
        
        Nope! None what so ever... (if you're coming from an alternaotr) though you may want to put in an extra 35amp cable if you're going to be using the extra ampage. In which case you'll want a female spade connector, some wire, and a ring connector...
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : Tim Bateman, 25-Nov-2004, 03:43pm
        
        Sorry, should have explained - I am coming from an ancient Dynamo set-up. I am sure there are other treads on this, but it would be useful if someone could explaint how/what to do in simple steps.
        
        Thanks
        
        Tim
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : Craig Gingell, 25-Nov-2004, 03:50pm
        
        Tim,
        
        There's a comprehensive article on replacing the Dynamo with an Alternator on the TSSC Devon website at -
        
        http://www.northcotts.clara.net/tsscdevon/technica...
        
        Rgds
        
        Craig
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : Steve Parsons, 25-Nov-2004, 06:16pm
        
        Craig, I can also recall an article in an edition of the courier, but can,t remember which issue.
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 26-Nov-2004, 00:58am
        
        Tim,
        Remove dynamo
        Fit alternator
        Remove regulator
        Join wires that went to regulator as shown. The black wire to the E connector is redundant.
        Connect dynamo wires to alternator, thick NY to big connector, thin NY to small.
        
        That's it!
        JOhn
        
        PS upload cockup.
        My WordPad image won't upload (too big? Only 870Kb).
        Basicly:
        Connect the three Brown wires to the THICK Brown/Yellow wire,
        and the Brown/Green wire to the THIN Brown/Yellow wire.
        
        See good theoretical diagram at http://www.hockerley.freeserve.co.uk/pages/electri...
        amd instructions at:
        http://www.mgcars.org.uk/electrical/body_gen-alt.h....
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Wayne Farnworth, 26-Nov-2004, 08:37am
        
        This posting really amplifies the case for a technical articles section to be added to the site.
        
        Here we have a question that is of interest to many owners and for the answer we are being redirected to (amongst others) an MG owners site!!
        
        The link to the Devon owners site shows an excellent walkthrough. There is also a seat rebuilding walkthrough.
        
        Why aren't those excellent articles available to all members on the main club site?
        
        This alternator conversion post could be the starting point. Ask the author of the piece on the Devon site for permission and transfer the item to here. Then build on it and add more gradually.
        
        WF
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Craig Gingell, 26-Nov-2004, 10:16am
        
        Wayne,
        
        Please understand that this website is very much a work in progress. Just because the website doesn't include certain features, doesn't in anyway imply that we won't be adding those features in the future.
        
        Please don't take this message as a criticism, but please be patient. I understand you have only been a member for 6 months, and over that time you probably think the website hasn't improved that much. However over the past 3 years Classic & Sportscar Magazine have awarded the TSSC with "Best Club Website" and we've received several "noteable mentions" too.
        
        We won't rest on our laurels. We are constantly working on ways we can make the website better, and we accept comments, questions, ideas and suggestions from all members.
        
        Watch this space.
        
        Regards
        
        Craig
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 26-Nov-2004, 01:52pm
        
        Wayne,
        An unprecedented aspect of the InterNet, completely different from any previous method of publication, is that anything published on it is available everywhere else. All you need is a link - the address of the page where the information is that you want. So if there is a good account of, say alternator conversion, on a Devon site, there is no need for it to appear on the TSSC site, only a link. And you've got that!
        
        Sometimes, such gems are kept hidden, only available to registered members of the webpage's club or sponsor group. Fair enough, that's their priviledge. But it is unlikely then that they will agree to publish the article free-to-view on another site. So write your own and publish it here!
        
        I agree that a technical articles index would be useful. Previous issues of the Courier and the Club's "Technical Index" will be a valuable source, but if the article appears anywhere else, the text need not be on the TSSC site. Craig, please include as many links as possible!
        
        Oh, and about the "It's on an MG site!" shock-horror. They are talking about the same b. engine for goodness sake! My other link was to a TVR site. Any objections to that?
        
        John
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Wayne Farnworth, 26-Nov-2004, 05:13pm
        
        John
        >>An unprecedented aspect of the InterNet, completely different from any previous method of publication, is that anything published on it is available everywhere else>>
        
        And you are at the mercy of someone elses hosting. You can view it - providing they keep the page there. Providing the website remains there.
        
        An always accessible section of Triumph specific articles hosted on this server, with a contents page would be a valuable and reliable addition for members.
        
        My comment about the MG site, is to highlight the fact that other marques are doing exactly this.
        
        The two articles on the Devonn TSSC site are very good, but six months from now, when this thread is long forgotten, they too will be forgotten.
        
        WF
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 26-Nov-2004, 06:29pm
        
        Wayne,
        Oh, gods, you're doing it too. You and Jon Binnington. "Quoting" the previous posting.
        
        I can read and my screen scrolls up and down. The Yanks claim that they do it because their boards move so fast that the earlier post may be lost in the traffic. Sure. Hardly necessary here on sleepy little old TSSC BB?
        
        On the 'Net, we can agree to differ, but both agree on the need for a Technical Article index?
        Best wishes
        John
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Wayne Farnworth, 26-Nov-2004, 08:34pm
        
        Certainly.
        
        And if I had the required skills, I would be the first to submit one.
        
        How about you John?
        
        Wayne
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Ian Palmerino, 27-Nov-2004, 09:28am
        
        Oh gods, ive never been on a more friendly car forum.
        
        and to think i joined this club, but then i was warned on another triumph forum what its like, so only myself to blame i guess,
        
        as wayne stated awhile ago, you get the feeling that there are people that think they (are) the club.
        but as was pointed out to wayne we are both newbies here so........
        
        in my view its a blessing that alot of members do not have access to this forum as the amount of nit picking that goes on the membership numbers would be falling, it really does the club image good!!!
        
        Ian
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Jonathan Binnington, 27-Nov-2004, 10:17am
        
        The courier published details about converting a dynamo wiring system to use alternators many yrs ago, I have a well used greasy photocopy of the article would it be helpful if i dug it out???
        
        bin
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Colin Wake, 27-Nov-2004, 03:03pm
        
        There was an excellent article in issue 100 of the Courier (I think it was, might have been 99, anyway it had a green 1500 spitfire on the front) where a false voltage regulator was made out of a sheet of thin perspex with copper terminal attached. That way all wiring is reversible. I made one up for a mate for the 1996 RBRR, and we had to swap back almost immediately when the 'new' alternator we had fitted karked it!
        
        Yu could also remove the innards from a spare voltage regulator and rewire it on the back for the same results.
        
        Cheers
        
        Colin
        
        Alternator upgrade - Technical Articles Section
        
        Posted By : Jonathan Binnington, 27-Nov-2004, 10:14am
        
        ''Oh, gods, you're doing it too. You and Jon Binnington. "Quoting" the previous posting.''
        
        John Davies - live and let live. I don't critcise your style, be curteous and back out of mine!
        
        Ian, stick with it my friend, there are a whole host of good guys out there, it takes all sorts
        
        best wishes to everybody
        
        Jonathan (Binman) Binnington
        aka Spikius Maximus Lateralis
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : William Davies, 26-Nov-2004, 09:26am
        
        All the electrical notes are easily found online, but no-one's touched on the bracketry required. Having been assured by someone who'd already done it that the 4 cylinder alternator brackets would fit, I found that nothing actually lined up - that cost me a few days in trying to find the appropriate parts. Not all Triumph 6s are made equal, the length of the top mounting arms varies depending on the car it's fitted to. Sorry I don't have a definitive list of which cars will provide the bits you need, I only have that information for the 4 cylinder cars,
        Cheers,
        Bill.
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 26-Nov-2004, 08:00pm
        
        Bill, From 1970 onward Four and Six (2000 Saloon) cylinder block to alternator brackets are one of the same. Part No. 147899.
        
        The Adjusting arm/bracket from the 4 cylinder cannot be used on the six cylinder engine. You have to use the 2000 saloon Alternator type. Use from 1970 onwards.
        
        Both the block bracket and adjusting arm/bracket used on the GT6 are different than the 2000 Saloon type and Four cylinder type. The GT6 types can be used on the Vitesse, but must be used as a pair.
        
        I cover the brackets in by article in the Feb 2004 Courier.
        
        As interest there are also a number of differences with the crank pulley and fan spacer block on the Six cylinder engines.
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : William Davies, 26-Nov-2004, 08:56pm
        
        Hi Dave,
        Memory's a little hazy as this is a job I've done just once on a 6 cylinder Triumph, but the 4 cylinder mounting block was not suitable on our Mk1 2000 (1968). I can't remember the specific reason it wouldn't work, but it certainly wouldn't do the job on a Mk1 engine.
        Paul Cull was good enough to provide me with the appropriate bits, from memory (hazy, as I said) these were from a GT6. Checking my parts lists, the number for the GT6 and Vitesse alternator mounting block is 214268.
        Something to be aware of when swapping bits around....
        Cheers,
        Bill.
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : Ian Palmerino, 26-Nov-2004, 09:02pm
        
        Dave is spot on, i did the conversion only last week on my 1600, used the block and bracket from a 2000, had it all swapped over within half hour.
        
        Ian
        
        Alternator upgrade
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 27-Nov-2004, 04:55pm
        
        Bill, the only difference in the GT6 bracket is that it mounts the Alternator lower down to clear the bonnet. The line up with the other pulleys is the same as the 4 cylinder type.
        
        The 4 cylinder will fit both Mk1 and Mk11 engines on the Vitesse.
        
        The only reason the GT6 bracket was used as an option on the Vitesse was the common parts bin approach.
        
        The same parts bin approach applied to the Dynamo bracket as all 1600's used the 4 cylinder high mounting Herald bracket. Where as all 2 Litres, both Mk1 and Mk11, use the later lower mounting GT6 type. The change took place when the GT6 was introduced.
        
        If you had pulley line up problems on a Vitesse then I would suspect the cause was something other than the bracket. It sounds like the spacers may have been the incorrect length or these had been modified.
        
        Alternator upgrade & Technical Section
        
        Posted By : Tim Bateman, 29-Nov-2004, 01:40pm
        
        Well....
        
        Thank you all for the info. I will assemble the parts pointing out in the postings, and give it a bash. I'll let you all know how it goes.
        
        Sorry if I have caused any arguments - I didn't think my simple request would cause such a heated conversation between fellow Triumph enthusiasts (and other marques). Last time I caused such a heated debate whas when I was asking about Convertible Triumph Dolomites!
        
        Cheers again guys.
        
        Alternator upgrade & Technical Section
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 29-Nov-2004, 07:04pm
        
        No problems, no heat. It's normal when you get a number of anoraks disscussing detailed points.
        
        Convertible Triumph Dolomite, now that was a lost opportunity.
        
        I just get my anorak.
        
        Alternator upgrade & Technical Section
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 29-Nov-2004, 07:43pm
        
        Convertible Dolomite!!!!
        Where's that phone number for Scrapheap Challenge?
        
        Alternator upgrade & Technical Section
        
        Posted By : David Rumens, 30-Nov-2004, 08:58pm
        
        Sound good to me!
        
        Alternator upgrade & Technical Section
        
        Posted By : Tim Bateman, 01-Dec-2004, 08:14am
        
        I'll have a go. Can I keep it after the show!
        
        Alternator upgrade & Technical Section
        
        Posted By : Tim Bateman, 06-Dec-2004, 03:38pm
        
        See current Triumph World Mag - ooohhhh, suits you sir!
  - Alternator upgrade
    
    Posted By : David Rumens, 26-Nov-2004, 07:26pm
    
    Tim,
    
    I did an article in the February 2004 Courier covering fitting an Alternator to the Vitesse.
    
    You can use the Dolomite Alternator and the block mounting bracket. But you have to use the adjusting arm/bracket from a 2000 Saloon.
    
    You have to carry out a small amount of re-wiring.
    - Dynamo to Alternator - help needed!
      
      Posted By : Lisa Elford, 03-Jan-2006, 08:17pm
      
      So as a newbie without much technical knowledge I have spent a good half hour reading this whole posting (with a chuckle here and there I might add).
      
      I have a Vitesse6 Mk1 2 litre (am sure that it being a convertible is of no consequence)
      
      So do I have this right...
      
      I need to get an Alternator from a Dolomite
      Mounting brackets from a 2000 Saloon (part no L47899?)
      and Adjustable arm/brackets also from 2000 Saloon (from 1970 onwards)
      or from a GT6 (part no 214268?)
      
      I don't mind if you laugh... but any response would be hugely appreciated.