Section : General

General Spitfire messages

Can anybody help?

Posted By : Tim Watson, 18-May-2003, 06:42pm

I bought a Triumph Spitfire a couple of months ago, and Im having a 'bit' of trouble.

The car starts from cold first time every time, but when I drive it for any longer than about 10 mins or so and then turn the engine off - I cant start it for another 20 mins.

This is an obviouse pain in the proverbial when it comes to filling it up with petrol and Im at the pump for 20 mins before it will start again.

I'm a relative novice to engines, although I have tinkered around a little. Someone told me that it might have something to do with the carbs getting too hot - I've fitted a heat plate (carb shield) but this doesnt seem to rectify the problem.

I trying to learn more about the car, and feel that I've read the haynes manual back-to-front but I cant see anything referring to this. Can anybody help?

Thanks - Tim.

Followups :

Can anybody help?

Posted By : Chris Wilson, 18-May-2003, 07:50pm

Tim,

What year and make is your spit? Not that I'm an expert by any means but the info might help others who are to diagnose your problem.

Causes that come to my mind are: sticking choke, far too rich a mixture etc. Have you checked that all nuts and bolts are tight on inlet manifold/carb mountings etc? May be a leak when all warmed up and has perhaps expanded? Not suffered this problem myself yet so don't have the answer but someone will have!!

Regards

Chris
- Can anybody help?
  
  Posted By : Daniel James, 19-May-2003, 08:48am
  
  Does the car actually turn over (if you can't tell, open the bonnet and see if the fan turns round, if it is then the engine is turning over), or does it just tick? If it dosn't turn over it's your starter motor; I had the same thing on an old Peugeot... quite why they don't work when hot, but do when cold is a bit of a mystery...
  
  To check if your mixture is to rich:
  
  Warm the car up, and get someone to rev it to 4k while you stand behind. If you see black smoke then you are running to rich. The car would also 'run-on' i.e. when you cut the ignition it splutters and coughs for a while before finally dying. You also might want to try running the engine to about 3k when hot, then turning it off, then (after it's cool!) removing the spark plugs and looking at them, the back of the halfords manual will tell you how to interpret what you see.
  
  There was a thread relating to this recently, (apparently) Halfords sell gurston's colourtune, and a carb balancing kit (also by gurstons) not expensive (especially the colourtune) and will probably save you money (in petrol costs) in the long run.
  
  good luck!
  - Can anybody help?
    
    Posted By : Michael Davis, 19-May-2003, 10:26am
    
    I think that run-on occurs when the mixture is too lean rather than too rich. Am I wrong?
    
    Mik
    - Can anybody help?
      
      Posted By : Dom Weaver, 19-May-2003, 01:22pm
      
      I thought run-on was purely based on overhot combustion chambers igniting unused fuel mixture after the ignition is switched off.
      
      Doesn't help with the original issue, but hey I'm at work and bored.
      - Can anybody help?
        
        Posted By : Michael Davis, 19-May-2003, 02:30pm
        
        yes, I think we're both right. A lean mixture causes the engine to run hotter so I've been told.
        
        Can anybody help?
        
        Posted By : Daniel James, 20-May-2003, 09:16am
        
        oops...you'd probably better just ignore me then....
        
        Can anybody help?
        
        Posted By : Michael Davis, 20-May-2003, 11:00am
        
        Not at all. Your advice was sound, I just think that the bit about a rich mixture causing running on might be incorrect.
        
        That's not to say that it is definately wrong though. I know that a lean mixture can cause running on, maybe a rich one can too although I've never experienced it.
        
        I'm not claiming to be an expert on fuel systems. Just passing on my own experiences and what I've read.
        
        Mik
  - Can anybody help?
    
    Posted By : Peter Hazlett, 19-May-2003, 12:11pm
    
    I had a similar problem on a past Mini of mine. The engine would turn over, but really slowly, as if a flat battery was the problem... turned out to be a short in the starter motor which heated it up and meant sticking when trying to turn over. Had to sit for 20 minutes until it cooled down (ignigion off) and then it would go...
    
    Just my tuppence
Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]

Posted By : David Balfour, 19-May-2003, 09:49pm

I have what sounds to be the same problem with my '78 1500. As yet it remains unsolved, but from what I've read here and in many catalogues it is due to the jets in the carbs that were fitted to post '76 cars. If you have one of these cars, and it still has original carbs and jets, this could be the problem.

The jets are called 'Waxstats' (although I've been calling them other things lately...) and they are supposed to regulate the fuel with a bit of wax slowly melting as the carbs warm up. With the carbs being so close to the exhaust manifold, this tends not to work and causes the problems you describe.

I've been away for a few weeks and my Spitfire is still in the garage, but I intend to get rid of these jets at the earliest opportunity. I believe Canley Classics (http://www.canleyclassics.com) sell the necessary conversion kits, and they also recommend you replace the butterflies too, but I'm not sure why.

If anybody has done this conversion, I would be interested to know how easy it was. I presume the carbs wil need re-tuning and balancing afterwards?

- David

P.S. There's some more info here: http://www.canleyclassics.com/catalog.asp?category...
- Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
  
  Posted By : Laurence Cochrane, 19-May-2003, 11:43pm
  
  David
  
  There is a very cheap and easy way of doing away with the waxstat jets. saves about forty quid.
  
  Remove float bowl and jet as one unit. 1/4 bolt and a clip. Let the bowl hang from the jet while working at this. SEEMS AWKWARD BUT TRUST ME.
  
  DO NOT UNDER ANY CURCUMSTANCES REMOVE THE PIPE FROM THE BOWL A REAL WHORE TO GET IN AND SEALED AGAIN PROPERLY !!!!!!!!!!
  
  At the base of the jet you will find a metal ring secured by 3 tabs unfold these tabs and dismantle jet assy.
  
  You will find a steel pin inside the thermostat remove and keep this pin. Throw the copper part away.
  
  You will need 2 UK one pence coins per carb / jet.
  
  Compress and hold the jet in the housing against the spring.
  
  Place the steel pin out of the thermostat upright on the end of the jet.
  
  Insert 2 one pence coins into the recess where thermostat sat.
  
  Replace end cap and refold tabs.
  
  A bit fiddley but. HEY FIXED JETS 2p EACH !!
  
  Mixture will require setting.
  
  Laurence
  - Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
    
    Posted By : Barry Huffer, 22-May-2003, 01:27pm
    
    Follow this thread for additional information on this tip complete with pictures.
    
    http://www.nireland.com/gd.triumph/waxstats.htm
    
    It works I've used it.
    
    With regard to the pipes I can vouch for that. Mine came out and I eventually got them to seal again. What seemed to do the trick was making sure that you take the rubber seal out of the float chamber and firmly push on to the pipe so that when you tighten the nut it reseals.
    - Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
      
      Posted By : Laurence Cochrane, 23-May-2003, 11:20pm
      
      Actualy Barry if you look at the bottom of that page you will find that it was based on an article written by me, published in the courier August 1996.
      
      The easiest method of dealing with the pipes is to remove bowl and jet as a unit.
      Leave the pipes alone !!
      
      I have done this conversion numberous times now, the only time I disconected from the bowl was the first time.
      I knew not to do that again.
      
      Laurence
      - Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
        
        Posted By : David Balfour, 25-May-2003, 09:49am
        
        Hi Laurence and Barry, thanks for all your help.
        
        Can your procedure be done with the carbs in situ (i.e. on the manifold on the car) or do I need to remove them? How necessary is this vice that you mention in the article?
        
        I've also been advised that there is a valve in the butterfly that is best removed/soldered up whilst I'm inside. I presume this is going to require further dismantling of the carb, do you know how simple this is to achieve? Is it even worth doing?
        
        Excuse the seemingly obvious questions, but I've never really touched any carburettor before (and when I have it's ended in tears).
        
        Thanks for your help again,
        
        David
        
        Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
        
        Posted By : Laurence Cochrane, 25-May-2003, 10:36pm
        
        Hi David
        To answer your questions.
        
        Carbs can be left in situ. Remove pipes 1/4 bolt holding bowl and a clip which holds the jet to the choke linkage jet and bowl will pull away freely.
        
        If you wish remove air filters. not required but makes access easier.
        
        Vice not really required but makes this fidddley job a lot easier.
        
        David with your limited experience leave the butterflies alone.
        These need to be properly soldered. Otherwise filler metal can fall out into engine, this will cause a part throttle situation on closed
        
        Laurence
        
        Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
        
        Posted By : James Carruthers, 26-May-2003, 00:33am
        
        Or to be even safer... just buy some solid butterflies... then theres no need to solder etc... and you'll get better flow over them (probably... depends how good you are at soldering)
        
        James
        
        Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
        
        Posted By : Adrian Lee, 26-May-2003, 00:55am
        
        or alternatively get some none waxstat carbs?
      - Can anybody help? [Waxstats?]
        
        Posted By : Barry Huffer, 27-May-2003, 12:22pm
        
        I noticed that after I posted the message if I had known before I would have given credit where it was due, abelated thanks from me for the tip.
        
        With regard to the pipe the removal was not intentional.