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Pump......
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Section : Cooling
Posted By : Ian Empsall, 26-May-2007, 02:36pm
Further to my recent posts and your helpful replies concerning my water pump - the story continues.....
Firstly, I can confirm it is possible to remove the pump without taking out (or damaging) the radiator. Replaced it today after carefully cleaning all
surfaces and using a new gasket and some red sealant.
Started it up and as soon as the thermostat let water in, water came out - not as a drip but like a slow running tap. It looked to be escaping from the
bottom of the 3 bolts which attach the pump to the housing. When the escaping water slowed to a drip I managed to get my camera close enough to see a drip
forming (see photo) - it looks to be behind the housing but it could actually be escaping from the joint and running backwards.
Before I start again, has anyone got any suggestions what's going wrong?. It may be worth mentioning that when I removed the old pump, 2 studs stayed in
place but the top left hand one came out with the nut. Fortunately I bought spare studs with the pump and fitted a new one. However, when it came to
attaching the new pump I found that there wasn't as much exposed thread as I would have liked, (not enough room to use a spring washer) so I obviously
screwed the stud in further than the old one had been. Is there any chance I could have cracked the housing?
Sorry for War and Peace but I need all the help I can get
Ian
Continuing Saga of my Water Pump......
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Posted By : Leon Guyot, 26-May-2007,
05:07pm
It is probable that the internal seal is blowing because of too high water pressure in the cooling system.
It is the weakest link.
I went through this in 1988/89 with 5 water pumps in as many months, very frustrating!
Once the seal has blown on the 'non-servicable' type of pump, then the pump has to be replaced.
I suspect either your radiator cap may need renewing - as they get older, apparently the spring weakens and the pressure increases.
Or, your thermostat is stuck.
Test it by removing it, place it in a pan of boiling water to see if it actually opens.
Failing the above, you may have stretched the water pump to housing studs - so replace them, and the nuts/washers that hold them on, and when replacing
the water pump with another new one, be sure to torque to the correct (low) settings - about 18-20 lb I believe.
I cannot locate my factory workshop manual and the Haynes just quotes for 'water pump to cylinder head', which is mis-leading because the water pump
connects to the water pump housing, which in turn connects to the cylinder head!
Best Regards
Léon
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Posted By : John Davies, 26-May-2007,
05:45pm
Leon,
Wouldn't a blown internal seal cause the water to leak from behind the pulley?
And run down the front of the pump to where Ian shows the drip - but it looks to be dry there.
Ian,
I see that the top of the hose from the rad is a bit damp. Is this just water running down from the pump area?
Is there a crack in the hose behind the pump housing, squirting water up onto the housing?
John
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Posted By : Ian Empsall, 26-May-2007,
08:48pm
Leon/John,
Thanks for theories/advice
I've had the engine running again to try to identify where the leak is coming from.
With the help of my video camera there is clearly a constant stream of water which looks to be running from behind the housing onto the hose.
Of course, this could easily be water being squirted upwards from the hose giving the impression that it's started higher up. I've posted a new
still which doesn't really capture the force or volume of the escaping water but at least you can see the problem area. I don't think there is
a leak from any of the 3 studs/bolts holding the pump in place.
i'm pretty sure the thermostst is OK because when I started the engine originally, there were no leaks whatsoever. The problem only seemed to
occur when the engine warmed up and the thermostat opened up and let water into the engine.
If the inner seal on the pump has blown, where would I expect to see water escaping from?
All views welcome at this stage
Continuing Saga of my Water Pump......
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Posted By : John Davies,
26-May-2007, 10:46pm
Ian,
Leon has described the little hole in the actual pump that can drain water when the seal goes, or else it comes out between the pump and
the pulley, around the pulley shaft where you can't see, and trickles down the pump. But this is not that.
I note the drops on the front plate/engine mount, but you say this "doesn't really capture the force or volume of the escaping water"! It
must be a torrent!
I also note that the top of that hose is damp, all the way around. A new hose is cheap and easy, certainly easier than taking off the pump
housing.
I'd get a new hose first.
Good luck!
JOhn
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Posted By : Steve Cureton,
27-May-2007, 10:18am
Looks to me as if the housing gasket has failed, not the pump gasket. It's only a paper gasket and is easily damaged during a re-build
so I think I'd just remopve the pump and housing and start gain with new gaskets and gasket sealant. It's proably also worth removing
the radiator as that will give you more room to check the mating surfaces and to clean it thoroughly.
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Posted By : Leon Guyot,
26-May-2007, 09:33pm
John,
I agree in essence, but sometimes there is a 'hole' in the body of the pump, behind the pulley and underneath, and water being water, well it
finds it's own way...
Ian could put food colouring in the water as an indicator?
Rgds
L
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Posted By : Leon Guyot,
26-May-2007, 10:20pm
From those photos, it looks to me like the joint between the water pump housing and the cylinder head, another infamous weak point.
There are three long bolts, rather thin for their length and the work they are expected to do.
The longest one is often a problem as it, in particular, can stretch and twist instead of torquing down correctly.
I have had one snap off inside the head, whilst in Sweden!
With the aid of screw extractors, I managed to remove the broken piece of bolt and replaced the broken bolt with one from a tractor repair
shop...a common part on Feguson 'grey lady' tractors!
Then I got it all back together and came back to the UK with no further problems.
Oh, did I mention, I had the supercharger on the Herald at that time, which made it a little more interesting.
Best Regards
Léon
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Posted By : Ian Empsall,
27-May-2007, 11:31am
Thanks to you all for suggestions etc - I'm sure the answer is in there somewhere.
What I can't understand is that before I fitted the new pump all I had was a small pool of water on the garage floor and a fine spray
of mucky water being thrown onto the underside of the bonnet, consistent with a failed seal. Now I've so much water escaping it's
difficult to tell where it's coming from. How can this be?
I've decided to take it to my local "old car friendly" garage next week and let him have a look. I'll let you know the outcome because
i'm sure you want to know. In the meantime if you have any other thoughts please let me know
This is my first Spit by the way (first Triumph actually) - I've had it a fortnight and apart from driving it the 65 miles home from
Cheshire I've done about 2 miles since. Not the best start I could have had!
Regards - Ian in wet and cold West Yorkshire
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Posted By : John
Davies, 27-May-2007, 04:01pm
Ian,
Nah then lad, bear up, could be worse - you could live down South!
Sorry that you haven't had a good introduction to Spitfire ownership (I typed "ownerwhip" - it probably feels like that!).
If time and enthusiasm allow, try to stay on the case a bit longer. A trip to any garage, however friendly, will cost brass.
Hose first, then the housing. Clean all the surfaces carefully, and use a minimum of gasket sealant - you plastered it on the
pump-to-housing joint like jam on a scone.
The hose connection on the housing is cast iron, and often has a rough surface, not improved by a bit of corrosion.
Careful use of the file will smooth that and could make a better joint.
Further diagnosis - that 'fine spray... on the bonnet'.
Was that from the pulley? You can tell by looking at exactly where the spray lands. If the pulley was spraying then that points to
a failed seal on the pulley shaft and a new pump.
good luck!
John
In warm(ish) (I'm wearing shorts) and dry(ish) (and a T-shirt) Lancashire, when them Southrons would be wearing Barbours, Yah!
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Posted By : Ian
Empsall, 27-May-2007, 04:57pm
John,
Thanks for encouragement - I need it!!
I took a short video last night (don't get excited) of where the water is showing itself now. Problem is I can't post it on the
forum to let others see. If you (or anyone) is prepared to let me have your email address I could send you it to look at. You
will need Windows Media player or similar to view
Regards
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Posted By : Leon
Guyot, 27-May-2007, 05:21pm
Ian,
John is in my opinion, right.
This is easily fixable, at low cost.
My money is still on the thin gasket betwixt water pump housing and cylinder head, especially if you inadvertantly
disturbed any of the three long bolts that hold them together.
The hose does look past it's best, and those wire type hose clamps in the photo are the originals, best replaced with good
quality modern 'jubilee' clamps.
The feeling of satisfaction that you will get by fixing it yourself is worth even more than the 'brass' that the garage
will be happy to relieve you of for doing the same job.
Maybe if you are still having problems, try contacting your local TSSC area organiser for his advice, he or someone he
knows may take a look for you!
Good Luck!
Léon
ps. here's a phot of me working on my Herald in Sweden, with broken bolt in hand!
Continuing Saga of my Water Pump......
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Posted By : John Davies, 27-May-2007, 10:26pm
Jesus, Leon, are you still thin enough to sit there?
I've just done a job that required me to lie down under the car, insert a bolt through the floor, get up, fit a nut,
lie down, attach a gripper, get up ........ you get the picture.
EIGHT times!
Old bones, I'm afraid.
John
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Posted By : Leon Guyot, 27-May-2007, 10:53pm
I wondered if someone would comment on the position, but no, I am afraid that photo was taken in August 1991, which
was of course close to 16 years ago!
I don't think I would want to try that again.
Rgds
Léon
older and creakier now.
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Posted By : Danial
Phoenix, 27-May-2007, 05:40pm