what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 18-Aug-2005, 09:13am
The IV onwards had the swingspring.
They're both basically the same thing - still both independant.
They're both basically the same thing - still both independant.
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what is the difference???
Posted By : Jackie Forsythe, 18-Aug-2005, 09:15am
So basically in the same category (independant) but different in specifics?
Jackie-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Ian Osprey, 18-Aug-2005, 09:22am
This link will take you to the relevant page in canley's web site.
you will see that the early arrangement had all the leaves firmly clamped to the diff. the later set up (in the detail frame at the bottom of the diagram) only clamps the bottom leaf, allowing the rest of the set to move.
Interestingly, Canley quote for a conversion 'kit' which includes the front anti roll bar.
http://www.canleyclassics.com/catalog.asp?category...-
what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 18-Aug-2005, 09:25am
Yes - it's pretty much the same thing. Still independant - meaning the wheels can move up and down independantly of each other. As to how much independance - that is the key.
The front anti roll bar is required - my Spit Mk3 when I bought it came with a swing spring and a normal anti roll bar - you get lots of roll!
Reason for this is that the rear swing spring is softer and allows more roll - so you need to stiffen up the front to control it.
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what is the difference???
Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 18-Aug-2005, 09:37am
AH HA!, so that's why my rotoflex gt6 convertible swings about at the back! - roto with swing spring - shall put the gt6 solid spring back on (changed it cos the back was too high) with a spring raiser block. It's taken a year to get my head round this one!-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Andy Cook, 18-Aug-2005, 11:23am
Vin,
You certainly don't want to have a swing spring with Rotoflex, this would result in a very wobbly back end oooh errr!..
The idea of the swing spring is that it is suppossed to prevent tuck under which can happen with on the limit cornering with the eralier fixed spring set up. However, the Rotoflex suspension can't possibly tuck under as it has the lower wishbone in the set up. Triumph really only introduced the swing spring in the late MKIII GT6's as a cost saving measure rather than an improvement. Rotoflex is a better suspension system in terms of hanldling but is more costly to manufacture in the first place and more costly to rebuild as well....-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 18-Aug-2005, 11:53am
After many years of debate on this matter in the racing championship (roto versus swingspring versus fixed spring) the final descision was theat there is no appreciable difference in the performance of either system. Each can be made to work as safely and efficiently as any of the others, and you have to agree that of all our club cars the racing ones need to have the handling sorted.
Rotoflex is heavy so the swing spring is the preferred solution but the driveshafts are weak, some racers ran with fixed springs and found no difference. Some run rear anti-roll bars and others don't, but non of them run camber compensators.
All that being said though, the solution is to stiffen up the back with uprated shocks (it's needed for handling anyway) and lower it - usually with a 1" spacer block to give negative camber. This of course would affect the size of speed bumps you can tackle on the roads though (we don't get them on racing circuits although some come close
) The more you lower the car, the better the
handling gets (to a point) however, this also increases the stresses on the halfshafts.
As for front anti-roll bars, I was surprised to learn that some racing cars do not run any anti-roll bar at all and can still win their class! In fact, in the wet, the common solution to get more grip is to disconnect it at one end... it works! A front anti-roll bar induces understeer so a car without one or the 'wrong' one will handle very differently from what you may expect.-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Jackie Forsythe, 18-Aug-2005, 06:24pm
That was really interesting, thoroughly enjoyed the info.
Thanks
)
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what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 18-Aug-2005, 07:57pm
NiG,
There is one flaw in this... roads are not race tracks! - this time Im talking about bumps and lumps - and not people driving too fast.
Race tracks are lovely and smooth - swing spring has no problem with these.
Rotoflex on normal road is much better though - I've driven a fair few now - and it works much better.
James
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what is the difference???
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 18-Aug-2005, 09:45pm
There is no 'flaw' it is an observation... please notice as Jackie did that it was FYI...
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what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 18-Aug-2005, 09:55pm
Ner ner ner...
just pointing out that your info was
regards to the track - which doesnt effect most of us.
Handling sorted for the track is different for the road - that's all Im saying.
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what is the difference???
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 18-Aug-2005, 10:09pm
handling is handling... doesn't matter where you are...
You can go very stiff for the track - yes.... but you must compromise performance if you want a more comfortable ride... this is also true on the track... and they are certainly not all lovely and smooth. Ultimatley though all this fuss and nonsense reaches a point where no further improvement can be made without stiffening the chassis, they don't half twist you know...
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what is the difference???
Posted By : David Pearson, 19-Aug-2005, 07:49am
Nige
Given the choice I would go for swing spring against rotflex (o left out deliberatly!) with a few provisos. One is that it has to be wide track swing spring (it makes all the differance), the other is that it all has to be well maintained, and the rear tracking has to be absolutely spot on. Give me a late MK111 GT6 over a rotflex MK11/111 any day off the week, and ultimately the best handling club car straight out of the box was always the Spit 1500 (but we all knew that anyway didn't we?). This is just my experiance based on nearly 30 years of driving many hundreds if not thousands of club cars (Iv'e just worked it out, conservatively 4/5 cars a week over the 20 odd years Iv'e been doing this, 5,000 + cars). What never fails to impress is how well a bog standard, well maintained Spit 1500, handles on our 3 mile test track (sorry public road) here in the wilds of sunny Fillongley. One thing is for sure neither Karl or myself can get anywhere near the same sort of elapsed time in the same conditions if sadled with a GT6 rotoflex.
Cheers
Dave-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Jackie Forsythe, 19-Aug-2005, 08:00am
"it has to be wide track swing spring"
What's one of them!!!?-
what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 19-Aug-2005, 08:05am
The later Spitfires have longer driveshafts on the back (along with a couple of other bits) - just means the wheels sit out further.
If you have 145/155 tyres and original steel wheels then you can put the later wide track on to your Mk3. If you have wider wheels or tyres then they'll just hit the body work if you do this.
Makes a massive difference - I upgraded mine - however how I can't fit bigge wheels or tyres! but of course, 145s rule!
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what is the difference???
Posted By : Jackie Forsythe, 19-Aug-2005, 08:37am
OK...so (Dave/Mr Canley Sir) is the swingspring in your conversion kits "wide track swing spring" or not? Asking if it will affect putting on spoked/wire wheels.
Just wanted to point out that I now eat breakfast with a Haynes manual/Canley webpages and lots of coffee to absorb what you lot are saying
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what is the difference???
Posted By : David Pearson, 19-Aug-2005, 08:56am
Our kits are narrow track because as James has pointed out you haven't got room in the arches on the early cars to accomodate the increased track without bodywork issues.
Cheers
Dave-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Jackie Forsythe, 19-Aug-2005, 08:58am
Fine thanks, can look at wire wheels later when suspension/brakes finished .
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what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 19-Aug-2005, 08:01am
Very interesting... 1500 out of the box... that makes sense to me...
But what about something like a rotoflexed Spitfire?
I have to say when I said that the rotoflex was better I knocked off points automatically for the straight 6! I think that probably outweighs any advantage of the rotoflex.
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what is the difference???
Posted By : David Pearson, 19-Aug-2005, 08:39am
'Rotoflex'd Spitfire'
The Bradley 'Le Mans' racer ERW 412C, the Cox/Clarke racers, and the Gold seal cars that all followed them were all so equiped (admitedly with reversed bottom wishbones and special springs/dampers), and they were invincible. I still say that for standard stuff though stick with swing spring, its simple, mega light in comparrison to roto, and it works.
Cheers
David-
what is the difference???
Posted By : John Davies, 19-Aug-2005, 09:34am
Dave,
"Reversed" wishbones? In what direction? How?
Silverback has wide track swing spring, for lightness, and with a second radius arm for spring control. Always interested in inprovements and alternatives.
John-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Christopher How, 19-Aug-2005, 09:53am
If you were to put the earlier, shorter halfshafts on a late 1500, how wide could you have your wheels? And would it make the car sit higher?
Chris-
what is the difference???
Posted By : Andy Cook, 19-Aug-2005, 10:29pm
Chris,
My thoughts are that at the end of the day the width of the wheel is mainly governed by the the width space in the wheel arch and the wheel offset. If you are fitting aftermarket wheels and have a choice of offsets then you may be able to get a wheel with an optimum offset that fills the arch width. This would save having to change the shaft set up for the shorter one.
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what is the difference???
Posted By : David Pearson, 20-Aug-2005, 07:22am
John
Instead of having a single pivot point inboard (chassis), they had wide spaced twin point mounts (similiar to but not the same as the front lower wishbone). No need for radius arms with this set up, and difficult to mount radius arms with aluminium bodywork anyhow!
Cheers
Dave-
what is the difference???
Posted By : James Carruthers, 20-Aug-2005, 09:03am
So when is Canley going to make a kit for this then
James
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what is the difference???
Posted By : David Pearson, 20-Aug-2005, 06:21pm
James
Would love to, but as usual other projects are getting in the way. Like trying to get two cars ready for the Club Triumph 10 Countries in a couple of weeks. Like sorting pattern equipment, and CNC machining programmes for alloy cylinder heads, and having to build 5 overdrive conversions for customers before I go away on the 10 Countries. Looks like some late nights for the next week or two, just what you need before a jaunt around Europe!
Cheers
Dave
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