Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Philip Wright, 21-Jan-2004, 02:33pm
Hi steve
I've just done a similar swap on my car very recently. I bought a second hand box, and took a gamble as the only checks I made were to make sure none of the gears felt rough, and I took the top off the gearbox and checked for damaged or broken teeth. When I put the gearbox in, the O/D worked perfectly [D type] but the gearbox was a bag of bolts as it jumped out of second and third, and there was no synchro on second. It was quiet though. After speaking to a fellow triumph owning friend of mine who has rebuilt many gearboxex himself, generally with a 50% success rate, I decided that obtaining a recon box was the best way to go.
As I needed to use the car over christmas [it's my daily driver], I got a quality [expensive] recon gearbox from a well known triumph supplier. However this gearbox jumps out of third gear and is a little crunchy in second, and I understand that if a new circlip is not used to hold the 3rd gear cluster in place, then this will be the result and the circlip will now be somewhere in the bottom of the box. So now I have to change the gearbox for a third time. However, I have done 500 miles over xmas on this gearbox and the existing secondhand overdrive still works faultlessly - sod's law!
If you decide to do it yourself, you will probably be able to use the best synchro rings, as the 4th gear synchro doesnt get used. Also, I have been told that the input shafts can wear quite badly, and if yours is worn they are &163;120 to replace.
If I were you i'd take both gearboxes to kippings and ask their gearbox guy to do it for you. I'm gonna have to take this gearbox out for the third time over easter when I get home from uni, and i'm not looking forward to it! Right - best get back to revision as my last exam is coming up tomorrow!!!
Phil - '74 Spitty
I've just done a similar swap on my car very recently. I bought a second hand box, and took a gamble as the only checks I made were to make sure none of the gears felt rough, and I took the top off the gearbox and checked for damaged or broken teeth. When I put the gearbox in, the O/D worked perfectly [D type] but the gearbox was a bag of bolts as it jumped out of second and third, and there was no synchro on second. It was quiet though. After speaking to a fellow triumph owning friend of mine who has rebuilt many gearboxex himself, generally with a 50% success rate, I decided that obtaining a recon box was the best way to go.
As I needed to use the car over christmas [it's my daily driver], I got a quality [expensive] recon gearbox from a well known triumph supplier. However this gearbox jumps out of third gear and is a little crunchy in second, and I understand that if a new circlip is not used to hold the 3rd gear cluster in place, then this will be the result and the circlip will now be somewhere in the bottom of the box. So now I have to change the gearbox for a third time. However, I have done 500 miles over xmas on this gearbox and the existing secondhand overdrive still works faultlessly - sod's law!
If you decide to do it yourself, you will probably be able to use the best synchro rings, as the 4th gear synchro doesnt get used. Also, I have been told that the input shafts can wear quite badly, and if yours is worn they are &163;120 to replace.
If I were you i'd take both gearboxes to kippings and ask their gearbox guy to do it for you. I'm gonna have to take this gearbox out for the third time over easter when I get home from uni, and i'm not looking forward to it! Right - best get back to revision as my last exam is coming up tomorrow!!!
Phil - '74 Spitty
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Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Craig Gingell, 21-Jan-2004, 02:35pm
Note to Phil - apologies about the problem you were having posting your last message.
Craig-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Philip Wright, 21-Jan-2004, 02:56pm
Hi Craig
I thought there must be somr problem with the site there, no worries!!
Phil
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Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : David Styles, 21-Jan-2004, 03:31pm
I need to get a gearbox rebuilt in the near future..
can you tell me who your [quality] box from a well known supplier came from,
so that I can make an informed decision..
ta..-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Philip Wright, 21-Jan-2004, 03:35pm
Hi Dave
It begins with an R and rhymes with bimmer!
Hopefully they'll exchance the gearbox as it's less than a month old, once I get it out again! It does have a 12 month warranty which is useful, just hope the exchange box doesnt have the same problem.
Phil-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : David Balfour, 21-Jan-2004, 09:09pm
From what I've heard from various people, recon gearboxes are a bit of a hit and miss affair in general.
We had our Stag gearbox 'reconditioned' when the engine was done. It fixed all the faults that it had at the time (jumped out of gear, crunchy in 3rd). Less than 3k later it lost synchro on 2nd, now 3rd is jumping out again. Sadly there is no warranty.
I was speaking to a guy that restores Emm Gees the other day, and he said that a full recondition was very rare, as a complete replacement of all the internals was extremely expensive. He said most places just replace the bearings and anything that's obviously damaged. How true this is I'm not sure, but I think a warranty would seem like a good idea if you're considering a recon unit.
David-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 22-Jan-2004, 09:16am
David (et al.)
Just as a point to note - I have a Canley Classis gearbox in my racer and 'even' for racing it comes with a TWO YEAR WARRANTY!!
Can anyone beat that!?
NiG-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Graham Reeks, 22-Jan-2004, 09:44am
Maybe not, but i bet i could wreck it!
Plus, remember that it's worth checking out exactly what the warranty covers ... that avoids disappointment when you're refused a refund-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Tim Willis, 24-Jan-2004, 09:45pm
Hello all,
This thread on gearboxes interests me, over the years I have done loads of our boxes and there is hardly ever any serious problems with them.
Normally a box will be noisy, losing synchro to varying degrees on all gears and with a sloppy gear change.
They are not that difficult to rebuild and parts usually cost &163;150-&194;&163;175. This is a fair saving over an off the shelf unit which you know nothing about.
I would replace as a matter of course; layshaft and rollers, the two mainshaft bearings, input shaft bearing, any other needle rollers needed. All gaskets and oil seals, all four synchro rings, and very importantly, the three detent springs and balls in each synchro hub, the selector shaft or shafts detent balls and springs and all bushes etc for the gear linkage. As long as you put it back together the way it came apart it will work nicely. The only difficulties I find are when someone has been there before and bits are wrong or damaged. Have a go!
Oh, and a word of warning on layshaft rollers, I once got a full set from my local supplier as part of a rebuild, built the box, drove it about 100m and the layshaft seized in the laygear, scrapping the gearbox casing. Turns out the rollers are metric equivalent sizes and the tiny increase in size multiplied by the number of rollers made the tolerance too tight. I wasn't best pleased.
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Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Steve Cooze, 27-Jan-2004, 06:57pm
Hi again all
Thanks for all constructive tips, but - DISASTER! - see above picture of nose of mainshaft. I beleive this should be plain, to match the bearing that came out! Mainshafts are jolly expensive, so I intend to turn the end true and turn up a bush to return the shaft to original diameter. Anyone know what the diameter should be, and is this a known or viable repair? So much for 'overdrive on the cheap'. Your sympathy and mainshafts accepted......
Steve Cooze
Non O/D innards in O/D box?-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Tim Willis, 27-Jan-2004, 11:24pm
Steve,
Oh dear! Looks like you're stuffed. I know this is supposed to be a common fault although I have only ever encountered it once, and not nearly so bad as yours. I think Canleys when they were J.Kippings used to remachine the mainshaft tip as you propose but with limited success and so now remanufactured shafts are used. Trouble is the hardening has to be really good at the tip because it is such a small section to take a lot of load. I'm not sure you will have any success with your plan, but I can measure a tip and post it tomorrow if you still fancy a go.
Just a thought, if you avoid using 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear you should get away with it! Kidding.
Tim
Willow Triumph -
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Simon Rayner, 28-Jan-2004, 10:05pm
Steve,
that mainshaft tip looks suspiciously like the remains of the one ive just replaced in my 3 rail dtype box.I was less fortunate in that the refurbished mainshaft gave out leaving me with a sump plug covered in steel!
tip for any beginners buying a second hand gearbox : waggle the input shaft - if there is anything more than the slightest play proceed with extreme caution - youll only find out by removing the input shaft,not something you do on the sellers doorstep!
Have since rebuilt with a new shaft from rimmers, V expensive but the total cost of refurbishing the gearbox was less than a rimmers recon box (sourced a complete overhaul kit off ebay for &163;50)
simon
Non O/D innards in O/D box?-
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Steve Cooze, 28-Jan-2004, 10:29pm
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the measurement offer Tim, but it seems both you and Simon have very valid reservations about reclaiming a knackered mainshaft. For the moment I shall shelve the overdrive box and return to my sweet shifting and quiet 4 speeder. Funds and efforts will be switched to my far more exciting engine project. Anyway, who wants overdrive when you can pull 7000rpm in 3rd?
Many thanks
Steve Cooze.
P.S. anyone got pair of HS4s & manifold swap for my 'box?
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Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Philip Wright, 22-Jan-2004, 03:21pm
I was originally going to go to Kippings but they were busy and couldnt do the box until the middle of January, and I had to have the car on the road over christmas - my Girlfriend came up
Phil - '74 Spit -
Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 22-Jan-2004, 08:13pm
For anyone who doesn't participate in the Yahoo and NASS discussion forums on t'internet - here's your history lesson. John Kipping's favourite comments on recon boxes "They are often more 'con' than 're'" - John was and still is critical of the standards of some recon boxes being punted out onto an unsuspecting Triumph owning public, so much so that I think it is fair to say his organisation tried harder than most to do it right. His gearboxes were built by, (amongst others) Gareth Thomas and lattery Mick Papworth - when Canley Classics bought John out they "acquired" not only the spares, expertise and gearbox knowhow but mostly the attitude that goes into making a proper box.
Not everything in a recon gearbox is new, often it can't be, it's not available. That's why it's "reconditioned" so there is a great deal of skill that has to go into assessing what can be reused and what's scrap, make a mistake and the thing will fail. Get it right and you've got a winner, cutting corners is easy - who's gonna see it anyway? But like all these things, there's a reason not to cut those corners - it'll come round and bite you in the rear end!
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Non O/D innards in O/D box?
Posted By : Philip Wright, 21-Jan-2004, 02:42pm
Hi steve
I've just done a similar swap on my car very recently. I bought a second hand box, and took a gamble as the only checks I made were to make sure none of the gears felt rough, and I took the top off the gearbox and checked for damaged or broken teeth. When I put the gearbox in, the O/D worked perfectly [D type] but the gearbox was a bag of bolts as it jumped out of second and third, and there was no synchro on second. It was quiet though. After speaking to a fellow triumph owning friend of mine who has rebuilt many gearboxex himself, generally with a 50% success rate, I decided that obtaining a recon box was the best way to go.
As I needed to use the car over christmas [it's my daily driver], I got a quality [expensive] recon gearbox from a well known triumph supplier. However this gearbox jumps out of third gear and is a little crunchy in second, and I understand that if a new circlip is not used to hold the 3rd gear cluster in place, then this will be the result and the circlip will now be somewhere in the bottom of the box. So now I have to change the gearbox for a third time. However, I have done 500 miles over xmas on this gearbox and the existing secondhand overdrive still works faultlessly - sod's law!
If you decide to do it yourself, you will probably be able to use the best synchro rings, as the 4th gear synchro doesnt get used. Also, I have been told that the input shafts can wear quite badly, and if yours is worn they are &163;120 to replace.
If I were you i'd take both gearboxes to kippings and ask their gearbox guy to do it for you. I'm gonna have to take this gearbox out for the third time over easter when I get home from uni, and i'm not looking forward to it! Right - best get back to revision as my last exam is coming up tomorrow!!!
Phil - '74 Spitty
I've just done a similar swap on my car very recently. I bought a second hand box, and took a gamble as the only checks I made were to make sure none of the gears felt rough, and I took the top off the gearbox and checked for damaged or broken teeth. When I put the gearbox in, the O/D worked perfectly [D type] but the gearbox was a bag of bolts as it jumped out of second and third, and there was no synchro on second. It was quiet though. After speaking to a fellow triumph owning friend of mine who has rebuilt many gearboxex himself, generally with a 50% success rate, I decided that obtaining a recon box was the best way to go.
As I needed to use the car over christmas [it's my daily driver], I got a quality [expensive] recon gearbox from a well known triumph supplier. However this gearbox jumps out of third gear and is a little crunchy in second, and I understand that if a new circlip is not used to hold the 3rd gear cluster in place, then this will be the result and the circlip will now be somewhere in the bottom of the box. So now I have to change the gearbox for a third time. However, I have done 500 miles over xmas on this gearbox and the existing secondhand overdrive still works faultlessly - sod's law!
If you decide to do it yourself, you will probably be able to use the best synchro rings, as the 4th gear synchro doesnt get used. Also, I have been told that the input shafts can wear quite badly, and if yours is worn they are &163;120 to replace.
If I were you i'd take both gearboxes to kippings and ask their gearbox guy to do it for you. I'm gonna have to take this gearbox out for the third time over easter when I get home from uni, and i'm not looking forward to it! Right - best get back to revision as my last exam is coming up tomorrow!!!
Phil - '74 Spitty