Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 15-Jun-2004, 10:07pm
We have a few cars coming along... see earlier thread....
Me, Barry, Kev, Karl, Jon (Wolfe), John (Davies)
Me, Barry, Kev, Karl, Jon (Wolfe), John (Davies)
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Andy Winterton, 16-Jun-2004, 11:06am
The idea is to offer power curve run-ups to the general public at &163;35 a go.
However, it would be great to get one of the race cars on for something a bit more involved. Perhaps someone would like to test alternative spark plugs, different sorts of airfilters, or just tune up the timing and carbs?-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : James Carruthers, 16-Jun-2004, 11:56am
Andy,
Personally I'd be happy to pay more for a proper tune up for my road car - a power curve is interesting to have - but doesnt really prove anything to me other than how much power I have.
I'd rather pay &163;80-90 for a bit of a tune up as well.
If you have all the Weber jets with you I might even be tempted to install my new single DCOE...
James
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Michael Davis, 16-Jun-2004, 02:35pm
Hmm, my race car has never been set up at all. Would be an interesting exercise to try out different stuff on it as I'm pretty sure it can be improved. Unfortunately it's not going to be there as I'll be in the road car for the weekend.-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Andy Winterton, 16-Jun-2004, 03:15pm
At the show, I'm apparently going to be located next to the guy who does static tune-ups - so I had to promise not to offer competition on the tuning front this time.
Perhaps we will put together some kind of joint package - maybe a before and after power run-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Chris Mills, 16-Jun-2004, 03:19pm
As suggested, When Andy and the Tune-up guys are together on site, I'm sure they can come up with a combined package.
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Andy Winterton, 16-Jun-2004, 03:38pm
Just as an aside, it can be quite useful having a power curve done for a race-car. Not only will you know your peak power, but also at what speed it occurs. This, together with the shape of the curve, will give you optimum gear change points.
I can also offer complete confidentiality if anyone would rather not reveal to the other racers just how much power their car produces!-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 16-Jun-2004, 08:46pm
You can't keep the figures from one racer.... or are you officially 'out' for the rest of the year..
I would have no trouble having my car 'run up' if time allows although by then it should be signing in tune.-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Andy Winterton, 17-Jun-2004, 03:55pm
Ha... officially "out" for the rest of the year - since last month that's not a particularly scary threat!
As you offered first NiG, how about a free run first thing Saturday morning to set a max hp target for the rest of the weekend?-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Jon Wolfe, 17-Jun-2004, 04:28pm
ooooh, can I have a go then????!!!-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 17-Jun-2004, 04:34pm
me first... me first
Although some racers a more higly tuned I expect it would set a good figure for comparison...
Yep... Good Idea
Let's set Jon the challenge of doubling my HP figure
(should be easy) - triple it! now there's a challenge
.. or HP per CC.... that should be about right...
got to find a figure I can win with
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Jon Wolfe, 18-Jun-2004, 08:51am
On BHP per CC a Spitfire or GT6 should win easily...130BHP+ from a 1300 Spit engine is good going and possible, 400BHP from a 4.0 litre Rover V8 has never been done.-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Savvas Regas, 18-Jun-2004, 04:24pm
*well* over 400 BHP from a 3.5 Rover V8 has been done....
although you prob won't see *that* car down at Sainsbury's.
Also, let's not forget that high torque is very important, although high power figures sound and look very impressive...
cheers,
sav-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Savvas Regas, 18-Jun-2004, 04:35pm
Recent motorbike engines can easily produce 200 BHP per litre, but these will not achieve the torque that a car engine will have. However, bikes are much lighter and don't require as much torque to move off and accelerate.
Considering the age of the 1300 and the 2 litre Triumph engines, they are pretty powerful and tunable.
It would be interesting to see what could be achieved with an 'all engine mods possible' race series... perhaps a truly insane 1300?
cheers,
sav -
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 18-Jun-2004, 05:11pm
Jon was referring to an engine that fit within our regs.... No forced induction and No Nitros running on standard pump fuel.
I also expect that the Rover V8 you are indicating would not still be a 3.5 litre unit.
The highest figure I've heard claimed (not verified) is 147Bhp (flywheel) from a Triumph 1300. I expect the V8 (4 litre in our regs) are knocking on the door of 300Bhp.
Figures on the day may be variable as we cannot vouch for the weather, calibration etc... if I get 120 I'll be happy (115 = acceptable)
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : James Carruthers, 18-Jun-2004, 08:40pm
I think we need a sweep stake on NiG's bhp...
"Guess how many horses are in the engine"
James
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Jon Wolfe, 18-Jun-2004, 11:28pm
Yes I'm talking from a normally aspirated engine running pump fuel and Rover heads. I doubt if anyone has ever exceeded about 360 BHP and maybe 310 lbs torque from a true Rover 4.0 with stock bores and Rover heads. (Using Wildcat heads would take the power well over 400 but they are not allowed in the TRs).
I used to use George Girr to build my engines, he was responsible for the engines in Graham Hill's ill fated Yardley F1 team and they built a Formula 5000 engine (which was of course a Rover by a different name) but for drag racing. At just over 5 litres they had 2000 BHP on tap, but only for 10 seconds at a time. The Janspeed twin turbo LeMans engine of 3500cc in 1981 could hit about 550 BHP on the dyno but it never ran with much over 400 as it was very fragile. Jon Odor (Janspeed) built the engine with parts supplied by Greg (CES Power - my current engine builder) and asked Ilien (of Ilmor) to dyno it and he refused unless they supplied at least 5 motors and gave him 4 weeks to do it! They only had one engine at any one time!
Things do keep developing though...
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Savvas Regas, 19-Jun-2004, 08:27am
I can assure you it is normally aspirated, over 400 BHP without nitrous and a 3.5 V8 and built to an exemplary standard.
cheers,
sav-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Jon Wolfe, 19-Jun-2004, 10:37am
I simply don't beleive it especially from a 3500. Build standard has nothing to do with it - it's the gas flow restriction through the heads that's the problem. CES were the first company in the UK to race modify Rover V8s and together with JE Developments have done everything you can do with these engines. I think someone may be exagerating their claim - rather like the works engines which were quoted by Leyland as something like 350 BHP but were in fact about 200 but with very good torque characteristics. Even the Ken Slagle and Bob Tullius engines were really only about 250BHP from a 3500.-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 19-Jun-2004, 03:34pm
400+ from a 3.5 rover on Rover heads seems a hella of lot.The heads won't flow enough no matter what you do to them,i'm sure with different heads and other mods it may be achievable ,but then,when does it stop being a rover 3.5 and begin to be something different?
Have knackered many a Rover 3.5 up trying to get too much out of them for sand racers.
But if i'm proved wrong Sav then so be it,get it up for the INT.W/end.and on the rolling road.
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 19-Jun-2004, 10:53am
As racers, we hear lots about 'claimed' horse power figures and we know what is and isn't acheiveable in our engines. We often see 'outrageous' claim of BHP which simply cannot be achieved. *This is the part where we all have a little chuckle*
There are two tendancies here, first *some* rolling roads (or engine builders) have their dyno's *tweaked* to give a false (higher) reading - you'd be surprised how much this happens. Many owners just want to see big numbers and aren't interested in the true figure. I heard of screaming arguments at tuning sessions because the reputable operator says the engine gives X amount of power, where the owner claims "no, your wrong. It's X++ power".
The other factor, is everyone exaggerates. And of course a
racer will never tell another racer exactly what his figure is...
The true and *only* test of an engine - is to put it in a car with a good driver on a circuit (or drag strip) with others. Barring incidents, the one across the line first is the better engine (all other things being equal - which it never is)
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Savvas Regas, 21-Jun-2004, 00:44am
It is SAE corrected horsepower. I have run engines on dynos myself - three weeks ago was the latest. A nice screaming bike engine...
It's not just the volume of air you get into the chambers, but also how much you compress it, intake charge temperature, chamber gometry. carburation/ injection system performance, ignition strategy, engine balance, crank, rod and piston etc inertia, valvetrain dynamics, etc
Of course the ultimate limit is the mass of air and fuel, but if you can squeeze more power from it than a stock engine by increasing efficiency - even over a small rpm range - then why do such fiigures seem a remote possiblity?
I have no sympathy for exaggerated figures - a true figure is much more useful for setting up the drivetrain, sorting out driving strategy etc. If an owner wants to boost the figure when he talks about it, it's his choice!
Unfortunately, I can't make the international weekend, but I'll try and post some more info when I get a chance.
sav
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Ralph Jane, 22-Jun-2004, 00:07am
A up NiG, 120 bhp= happy and 115 bhp = acceptable. It's a good job you don't use the rolling road that I use coz it tells me that I'm only making 76 bhp @ the wheels. Hmmmmmmmm ? must be the way I drive. I see that you too have noticed that red cars go quicker in races. I look forward to you beating me to the flag at Oulton Park again
Captain Scarlet
Class 'C' Spitfire-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 22-Jun-2004, 09:59am
After the last rolling road session (Sat) I think I'd be happy with 110!!! Cars lost a lot of power but gained a helluvalot of 'driveability' - (whatever that is)
Turns out that I get another 3 horse power if I disconnected the Tacho as it was 'robbing' the coil!! So a new tacho with tellatale and shift light - woo hoo!
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Andy Vowell, 22-Jun-2004, 10:32am
Re the battle of the red spits. Nig's 110 flywheel HP is roughly coincident with Rej's 76hp at the wheels. I read in some dodgy motoring mag (CCC?) in the dim and distant past that an average figure for rolling losses is 25%. This makes NiG's 110 Flywheel HP into 82HP at the wheels. Should be a good race.
Tacho taking 3 hp, for a cheap fix you could fit a switch into the tacho supply wiring so you could disconnect the tacho at will for that last ditch overtaking manoevere.
Andy-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : David Thompson, 22-Jun-2004, 02:18pm
Re "for that last ditch overtaking manoevere."
With Nig's recent history, particularly at Oulton I would have thought that overtaking a ditch was the last thing that he should be looking to do (and in fact last time it was the last thing he did before hitting the tyres).
Dave -
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 22-Jun-2004, 02:28pm
Oooh - my figure is an at-the-wheels figure. I always measure at the wheels afterall - thats the bit I get to use.
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : James Carruthers, 16-Jun-2004, 04:42pm
Sounds fine...
Though personally I see them as being different types of tuning - the static tuning is for the every day people - how much is that costing? &163;30?
The rolling road is for people who are really trying to get the most out of their cars - and I would expect that to cost *at least* twice/three as much.
Personally I wouldnt bother getting mine tuned "statically" - I can do that myself - but I would like it to be tuned up on a rolling road... especially as it gives me an excuse to put on my Weber
So surely two different services aimed at two different set of people?
James
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Don Cook, 16-Jun-2004, 05:45pm
Hey Mr Carruthers - just remember I've seen you static tuning your car! Static on the M25.
As one of "the every day people" I'll cough up my &163;30 and it will be well spent so long as I don't get home on the back of a truck compliments of Footman James like last year when I didn't have a static tune!-
Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : James Carruthers, 16-Jun-2004, 05:51pm
Ok ok - I admit wording it "everyday people" is wording it odd!
Wasn't meant to be derogatory... how's this...
The normal people can get a static tune, the people with too much money can get a rolling road tune done...
James
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Mobile Rolling Road - Int'l Weekend
Posted By : Michael Davis, 16-Jun-2004, 07:45pm
Well that lets me out then!
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