Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 31-May-2004, 11:43pm
Julian,
WOW! Where did you get this beast? It sounds like Lindsay-Dean followed in the tyre tracks of Kastner and his CandyBox Vitesse - really 'trick' as the Yanks say. Wonderful - PLEASE bring it to Stafford, a race meeting or even better, enter it in the Guest Class. I sorely need some more Vits to race against! Or follow behind if this is what it sounds like.
When I first got my Vitesse and thought I might race it, TLD's racing exploits were often in the Courier. But I never got to see his machine, because by the time I did start racing, he had given up, and within a very few years all the other Vitesses had too. Mine was the last of the breed, and still is depite the similar profile of Kev Hadfields Herald.
I've developed mine over the years, and the new one even more so, but with the advantage of being in touch with the current regs. The new one will be out in anger before this season's end. A small fuelling problem will soon be dealt with, and the cooling one (See current Retro) already has. It's fuel injected, with certain cooling and rear suspension mods, but nothing as radical as yours. And it has a shape that gets right up the noses of the TRR, but that's pure happenchance, most unfortunate.
If you can't make a Club or race meeting, I would still love to see your car. I live in Lancaster, but would gladly travel a long way to clap eyes on this!
Best wishes
John
PS The Six cylinder really needs baffles. I have a horizontal plate, held in by small brackets welded to the sides, that holds vertical, transverse and fore-and-aft baffles. Without it, no oil pressure on left handers. J.
WOW! Where did you get this beast? It sounds like Lindsay-Dean followed in the tyre tracks of Kastner and his CandyBox Vitesse - really 'trick' as the Yanks say. Wonderful - PLEASE bring it to Stafford, a race meeting or even better, enter it in the Guest Class. I sorely need some more Vits to race against! Or follow behind if this is what it sounds like.
When I first got my Vitesse and thought I might race it, TLD's racing exploits were often in the Courier. But I never got to see his machine, because by the time I did start racing, he had given up, and within a very few years all the other Vitesses had too. Mine was the last of the breed, and still is depite the similar profile of Kev Hadfields Herald.
I've developed mine over the years, and the new one even more so, but with the advantage of being in touch with the current regs. The new one will be out in anger before this season's end. A small fuelling problem will soon be dealt with, and the cooling one (See current Retro) already has. It's fuel injected, with certain cooling and rear suspension mods, but nothing as radical as yours. And it has a shape that gets right up the noses of the TRR, but that's pure happenchance, most unfortunate.
If you can't make a Club or race meeting, I would still love to see your car. I live in Lancaster, but would gladly travel a long way to clap eyes on this!
Best wishes
John
PS The Six cylinder really needs baffles. I have a horizontal plate, held in by small brackets welded to the sides, that holds vertical, transverse and fore-and-aft baffles. Without it, no oil pressure on left handers. J.
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 01-Jun-2004, 08:30am
Julian, is it red and based on a convertible Vitesse?-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 02-Jun-2004, 08:38pm
Hi Jason,
No it's a very shabby white, and has a normal roof, which I suspect is original as tight up against it is a very solid (14 point welded ) roll cage.
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 03-Jun-2004, 08:47pm
Hmmm, not the one I was thinking of then
Tony Lidsay-Dean's 80's racer was white and he told me
ages ago it ended up being dismantled and cut up. There was a sister car of very similar spec built by one of his employees - Ian I think
his name was. There was some sort of parting of the ways between Ian and Tony and Ian disappeared from the scene with his car. Both Tony
and Ian's cars ran coil over rear ends and I recall Ian's car had a rear disc set-up, can't remember what Tony had on his.
It would be good to see some photos of your "find".-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 03-Jun-2004, 09:35pm
Sorry Jason photos would not help at the moment, as the car really is just a pile of bits.
Tony LD built the car for Angus Maclachlan. It was maintained for a while by John Sadler of Trioomph, and then sold to Leigh Parkes in 1995. He has owned it since then. I bought it a couple of months ago.
Once the back end is re-assembled, and I have fabricated some new components I will post a couple of pictures of the set up
If you would like more info just ask.
Regards
Julian-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 03-Jun-2004, 10:12pm
What's the reg Julian, I'll see if I can find any pictures of it from my days trackside at the Triumph racing of yesteryear I think I;ve posted these pix beofre but here's an all
Vitesse line-up
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Tim Bancroft, 04-Jun-2004, 05:41pm
Just a thought, did'nt the editor or a writer at Triple C own a racing Vitesse about 10 years ago, could it be his old car.
TLD's Vitesse was a convertible back in about 1985, I know this as my mate Jon Stevens put it into a concrete fence near Staines one evening on a test run with Tony. They were entered in a sprint at either Goodwood or Lydden the next day.
Jon did get to race the car in a meeting at Lydden, but retired when he spun off and could not get going. I think the meeting was organised by the 750MC. Jon went on to do a season of Hillclimbing/Sprinting with the TSSC in the company of Kevin Ginger, Paul Lucas, and Bill Hazeldine, Jon used his maroon Vitesse mk.2. He then went on too lose it one day on the A303 and bent the rear of the car and sold the whole thing to TLD. VYH 89H were are you now?
On the subject of TLD , I bought my short engine in my GT6 from him in 1985 at a price of &163;50. Not bad in-light of the fact that it has only been machined once since purchase.-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 26-Jul-2004, 07:57pm
I promised to upload an image or two of the rear suepension set up on the Vitesse once I had re-built it. Please have a look. Not legal in your series I'm afraid.
Coil overs pick up on the roll cage, which is welded in (Special I think from Safety Devices)
Drive shafts are double U.J. s (Maybe off a Stag?) Any ideas out there?
The vertical link has been turned back by about 10mm to accomodate the caliper mounting plate. The Mk1 Fiesta discs and calipers are an easy fit over the drive flange, and onto this plate. I suspect that the thing will be overbraked somewhat.
I have re-instated one leaf of the transverse spring to act as a top link.
I have no idea how the car will handle although a few static tests seem to how that the new bottom "wishbones" (More of a trailing arm really) will allow negative camber and tow in to build with body roll, so it may work OK.
You may notice that it is fully rose jointed. I imagine that getting the suspension geometry correct is going to be a real hoot, Track, alignment camber..etc etc .
I am concerned about the method for wheel bearing adjustment. With the double taper bearings the bearing pre-load will be critical. How do you set it up on your cars, and then prevent it moving? The workshop manual suggests shims to obtain a small amount of end float, and then just tighten the hub nut bloody tight...Does it work on race car? I would prefer to take out all of the end float and then back the nut off by 90 degrees. Then double nut it as a locking device... Again your thoughts would be appreciated.
On a more general note, the engine is in bits at present awaiting some new pistons. The cam is a reprofiled jobbie, and is about the thickness of a twig. So I am going to put in one ground from a blank. Any suggestions for cam profile and suitable springs would be appreciated. (The carbs are triple 48s)
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 26-Jul-2004, 07:59pm
Another photo
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 26-Jul-2004, 08:02pm
and another
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 26-Jul-2004, 11:33pm
Julian,
Great! have a look at my Vitesse if you get a chance.
But why have you stopped half way? A flexible top link? Aaaaaaaaargh! The vertical link will be wavering in camber AND castor all over the place. You don't need it. Replace asap with a rigid rose jointed strut, AND a second, wishboning forward radius arm.
Like my Vitesse. Within the regs.
John
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 27-Jul-2004, 05:13pm
John,
Thanks for the input. Do you have any pictures of the rear suspension set up?
I have been dwelling on the top arm for some time, and have been wondering about how the leaf spring would act under cornering.. Is what you are telling me a known problem with this suspension set up. (I am not knowledgable about tansverse springs...In fact I know nothing about them .) Do they flex or twist under torsion??
Putting a top link in would be very easy. Making it a double wishbone set up. The aggravation so far as I see it is running a radius arm forward. My thought would be to install a bar with a rose joint at each end. Picking up on the outer part of the top arm and securing somewhere at the front of the inner wheel arch. This would hold it rigid in torsion whilst the top link held it upright.
Have you any thoughts on my other questions
Regards
Julian
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 27-Jul-2004, 11:35pm
Julian,
You are right about the radius arm, but I think that one mounted on the wheel arch will be much too short and will distort the spring/lateral arm. I use a second radius arm (literally) between the spring end and a bracket vertically above the conventional radius arm end, braced to that, the roll cage and the bracket on the opposite side. Hence, the rear upright is 'four-linked' in a parallogram, so that it can only move vertically.
There are considerable reaction torques on the upright, and I am sure that the spring must twist a bit. You have retained a single leaf, so it will be even more likely to do so. It is non-functional as a spring, so a rigid bar would be better, and lighter.
I kept the full spring, as the Race Regs say no coil-overs. If you get it out on the track, you would be welcome in the Guest Class of the TSSC/TRR series. If you can get to Donington this weekend , please find the Silverback Vitesse for a chat.
I can't find my pics of the four-link, but here's one of my ARB. Very like yours, even to the mounts! But you have chosen to work it from inboard pick-ups so your bar is massive. I chose to work from the vertical link and only needed a thin one.
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 28-Jul-2004, 00:24am
John,
Thanks for the reply. Trying to understand the arrangement of your suspension has got me a bit confused. A Picture or a sketch would be really helpful. I think that you are right about the single leaf tending to twist.
Yes I can see that the differing arcs of two different length arms could cause problems. I believe that you are correct that picking up on the inner wheel arch may not be the answer. (A good point that I had not fully considered thankyou)
The other alternative could be to run a tie bar from the bottom wishbone and connect it to the vertical link where the leaf spring bolts in. This triangulated bar would then have to move in unison. I havent checked this out yet so it may be a non-starter.
Once the car is built I will bring it out to play in the guest class. It should have bags of grunt, but probably the handling characteristics of a mini skip. I think that the car may eventually find it's home in the Classic Thunder championship.
I cannot get to Donnington this weekend as I am out playing myself. plus it's a long way from Kent. By the way where are you from?
The arb is one of three that came with the car, the one mounted is the heaviest, and yup it is a bit big.
The car is still a fair way from being done, as I have to fit it in between prepping the Westfield, mowing the lawn. etc etc. I do not intend to do race it this year so I am happy to experiment.
JUlian
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 09-Aug-2004, 09:49pm
Julian,
I still can't find my pics of the whole double radius arm setup. I do enclose a pic of the right hand upper radius arm from inside the car. The other is a mirror image.
In the centre of the pic a bracket comes through the floor. It is not attached to the floor, but bolted to the rear outrigger below, where the original radius arm bracket would be. The lower end mounts the lower, original arm in the usual way, so that the upper arm is parallel to the lower below the floor.
The upper end of the bracket is braced by a short stay from the roll cage upright and a long cross-stay from the opposite bracket. It is thus extremely rigid. The upper radius arm goes through the wheel arch to a bracket on the end of the transverse spring. The opening to the wheel arch has a small enclosure with brush seals, to limit the access of water and dirt. The opening in the floor for the upright bracket is closed by a rubber membrane, while the cavity of the square-section bracket is closed with expanding polyurethane foam.
The Radius arm is an original adjustable Rotaflex type arm. The alloy sheet to the right is an enclosure for the fuel tank and pumps.
Note that the upper and lower radius arms are equal length and mounted in parallel. The fixed upright bracket is vertical, so the arms will force the wheel upright to remain vertical, in a fore-and-aft plane, while the suspension moves. Bowing of the spring could still induce unwanted changes in camber angle. Your arrangement will be especially prone to the latter, as your one-leaf spring is exceptionally weak, and a locating arm to maintain the distance of the top end of the wheel upright will be (IMHO) essential.
I believe that this double radius arm modification is one that Triumph could easily have done, with existing parts and the addition of a few simple, cheap brackets. Some strengthening of the floor, or bracing to the outrigger below would be needed to mount the upper bracket in a rollcage-less road car, perhaps two brackets, bolted together through the floor, and modification of the wheel arch to prevent mud and damp getting into the passenger space. The rear seat would have covered the mechanism.
Sad to say, the TSSC/TRR racing regs have moved on since I designed and built it. ("Rear axle location - one addition to original" is now only for TRs, classes B & D. Well I'm B&gg&r&D!)
I'm grateful to the Race Secretaries for allowing me to race despite the Rules (if I can cure the car's other problems) though I shall be compelled to cover the linkage with an alloy cowl, as moving suspension parts in the passenger space should be. Perhaps I should put back the rear seat!
John
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 13-Aug-2004, 05:08pm
John,
Interesting stuff. You have just about convinced me to put in individual top links and the stay bar, however it will be a week or two before I get round to it. I will post a picture for you when it is done.
Mind you the rest of the car is also in limbo, as I am waiting for some pistons to arrive from the States before buiding the engine. The body work is still pretty cruddy, but as I keep knocking bits off of my other car it will have to wait for that as well.
Any further information would be appreciated.
Thanks for your help
Julian-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 13-Aug-2004, 06:16pm
Julian,
Glad you like it.
Knowing what you want to know and telling you will be a bit longwinded. Better to try and meet and compare cars (Mine's bigger than your's!)
I'll not be out racing again (Hah! Didn't get racing last time - the shame!) for a while, so I'll let you know.
Please enter your personal profile on the message board, with email address, or else we shall have to continue this conversation in public (well no one else is really interested, are they?)
John
PS Retro were interested - see September edition.-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 16-Aug-2004, 11:38pm
John,
I didn't know about personal profiles, still I've done one now. (and haven't lied too much)
You are welcome to look at the car at any time, but I think you would be wasting your time at the moment. Hopefully by the end of the year it will be just about done.
What were Retro interested in? (I am too mean to buy the mag)-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Stephen Weblin, 17-Aug-2004, 01:57pm
I have enjoyed following your conversation. As the owrner of a modified road car I like to see details of modified cars. I think that this is just the sort of thing that the message board is good for. Technical details like this do not get enough coverage in the Courier.-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 17-Aug-2004, 06:58pm
If someone writes a technical article for the courier then I could almost guarantee it would be published. There are soooo many things to write about in that respect - where do you start...?
John Thomason is pretty good at these.... You'll find that the racers are pretty reluctant to tell all their secrets... but I'm sure there are many bods out there with nice mods on their cars.... so guys... get writing.... Bernie would be sooo happy...
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Tim Willis, 17-Aug-2004, 10:01pm
John
Me like your estate very much. Is it like one of those F1 fan cars from when I was very tiny.
Seriously, it looks great, but would the hot exhaust gas get drawn into the rads? or am I talking bo**cks?
Tim
Willow Triumph-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 17-Aug-2004, 11:17pm
Tim,
I suppose it does look a little bit like the Brabham B46/B fan car - if you added much bigger tyres, a wing and another six cylinders. In fact the fans draw in air via side vents behind the rear wheels, through the rad and out at the back, so I doubt if exhaust fumes will get in. I certainly hope they don't, as although I originally intended to duct the vents to the rad, I got bored with fettling alloy sheet and gave up, so that the air in the whole car is drawn back towards the rad. And while these fans draw 7 amps each, the Brabham car ran its single fan direct from the gearbox, at 7000rpm!
I did consider taking the air for the fans from the underside of the car, just like the Brabham and with the same intent, but A/ the fuel tank got in the way and B/ the car is wildly overdeveloped anyway. I called a stop to development and have tried to get it race worthy. Still trying.
The other similarity to the Brabham will be side skirts, but sadly not sliding, ground hugging ones. Unless the Race Committee wants to encourage a development class?
John-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 18-Aug-2004, 02:43pm
Oi....
*I have a committee?
Oooo!*
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 17-Aug-2004, 11:47pm
Hi Steve,
I agree and have learned from reading what has been said on this site. The 20/50 oil thread was excellent.
I liked Johns idea of a "development class" and I can imagine the fun that could be had writing the tech regs and then finding ways to get round them.
I fully expect to be asking for help in getting my car to handle. Those two cylinders sitting in front of the front wheels must make the Vitesse's and GT6's really entertaining to drive.(especially with the sort of grunt allegedly available from the 6 cylinder lump.)
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 18-Aug-2004, 00:12am
Julian,
I think that racing regulations are there to be got around, and the more ingenious the method the better. However, as I mentioned before, I have been too clever by half this time, and only by the grace of the racing secretaries have I any hope of racing, as the upper radius arm is not legal. (It was, last year!).
The other view is that development is expensive, and the TSSC/TRR Championship is intended NOT to be a rich man's series, where money can buy advantage. The Regs say that if they do not permit you to do something, then you are forbidden to do it! My 'extra link' was allowed before, not only for the one class for which it is now specified. But rule circumventing always means that rule loopholes are closed up behind you - or this time, in front of me!
John
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 18-Aug-2004, 02:51pm
Just a quick note to you two.... regardless of TSSC regulations, we are having another all triumph race in October at Lydden again (23rd)... if you have your cars ready by then (I know it's a bit of a trip for you John) then you can give them a run...
It would be great too see multiple Vitesses out there again...
PS - all the classes in this one are 'development' even down to V8 spitfires if you've got one! Even that
Herald Dragster would be elligible 
- it just needs to be a triumph tub really...
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : John Davies, 17-Aug-2004, 11:28pm
Julian,
They wanted a feature on 'modified estates'. Several others were invited to Bruntingthorpe, but only one made it. Matt Green has a real Q-car of a Mini estate with a Vauxhall 2 litre Ecotec engine. Looks totally normal, although the front is three inches longer than normal!
John
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 05-Jun-2004, 07:59pm
Good picture Jason, Looks like Paddock @ Brands?
Reg No is JPP 10C.
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 07-Jun-2004, 09:12am
Yes it could well be! I have a poor memory for this sort of detail and never marked any of these photos with a date or place These were in the late 80's early 90's when the
TSSC used to race with the 750 MC and it was not unusual to see 4 or 5 Vitesses out
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 02-Jun-2004, 08:59pm
Hi John,
I bought the car in a moment of weakness from a guy in Surrey, he had raced it for a few years mainly at Lydden, unfortunately his prepping skills were not to hot, so although it is basically all there I am in the process of giving it a fairly major rebuild.
I have already spoken to Nigel Gibbins and he has indicated that the car would be allowed to come and play in the guest class. That being said it will be a few months before it is all back together, so I am going to try and get the car out for maybe one race later in the season.
You are very welcome to see the car, however as I live in Kent, and at the moment it is just a pile of bits I suggest that you wait a while.
Thankyou for the baffle information, can you let me have a drawing so that I can nick your idea (it obviously works)
Bit more info for you
Carbs Triple 48 DCOE's
14 point welded cage picking up on suspension,
Engine has Carillo rods, some really girlie pistons, and a cam profile that seems fairly unique (306deg duration) Have yet to work out compression ratio, and have no reliable power figures, only vague threats of a possible 240 bhp. (Although I think that that is a bit hopeful for that type of engine)
Thanks very much for the information, if you want to know any more about this car I am happy to oblige.
Regards
Julian-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Andy Smith, 02-Jun-2004, 10:01pm
Julien,
I would like to see some details of the rear disc set up i:e some diagrams of bracket, and what model fiesta discs and calipers have been used. Hope to see on the track soon.
Email me @ andysmithgt6@yahoo.co.uk
Cheers Andy mk1 gt6-
Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 02-Jun-2004, 11:25pm
Hi Andy,
Discs and calipers, are from the front of a Mk1 Fiesta.
Discs have been re-drilled to accomodate different stud pattern.
I will draw up a template for you, for the caliper bracket, and give further information on fixings etc at the weekend. If you want you are welcome to come and look at it
I live in Kent.
Regards
Julian
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Raymond Johncock, 02-Jun-2004, 10:21pm
Hi julian
Where abouts in kent do you live im based at whitstable
RAY J
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Really 'trick' Vitesse Race car
Posted By : Julian Belcher, 02-Jun-2004, 11:19pm
Hello Ray,
The village is called Shadoxhurst, and is about five miles south of Ashford.
Julian
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