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Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule

Posted By : David Styles, 23-Jan-2004, 12:04pm

So here's the blue book rules..

--- ---
J20.9.2

Have any engine oil tank breather or overflow tube or overflow tube venting into atmosphere, led into catch tanks, which have a minimum capacity of 2 litres.

J20.9.3

Have catch tanks of translucent plastic or with a transparent inspection panel, capable of being readily emptied. In any parallel system of catch tanks, each tank must be not be less than half the minimum required capacity. Containers less than 46sq cm cross section are prohibited.

--- ---

But I can't find anything about catch tank regulation for the cooling system.

So I'm presuming that catch tanks for cooling system is a series rule.

Anyway...

On these grounds is it permissible for me to have a single catch tank, for both my oil and water catch ?

I reckon the rules are referring to tanks in the plural, as it talks about an array of parallel tanks...

and therefore refers to these as "tanks"...

It doesn't say "tank" which is what I'd expect if it was one for water and one for oil.

so...

can I have a nice 2 litre catch tank... with both my water and oil routed to it. ?

thats my question...

>>emphasize>>

Has everybody really got 2 x 2 litre tanks ?
One for oil and one for water ?

<<

while I'm here...

Who is it that presides over these sorts of rules..
I know that Nigel is our comp sec, but do we have club stewards that join with the comp sec for this type of ruling ?

(isn't a committee of 3 normal ?)

Is there a procedure for asking these sorts of questions ? Is there a formal way I should be discussing rules ?

and am I missing something... is there a specific coolant rule.

I should point out here that I'm not trying to bend any rules, or interpret them in any fancy way..

I'm just want my engine bay to look as neat as poss.. and 1 catch tank on my bulkhead will be better than 2 !

(dunno if i can even fit two!)

cheers

Dave.

Followups :

Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule

Posted By : Andy Vowell, 23-Jan-2004, 12:50pm

Woow loadsa questions.

Catch tanks, I read it as OK to have a single catch tank for both and there is no championship specific rule, BUT.......

The cooling system catchtank on a spit actually acts as an expansion tank, ie what water it chucks out when hot it also must be able to suck back in again as the engine cools and water unexpandsso it needs to be separate to work. I use a 1 litre bicycle bottle for water catch/expansion and a 2L ally tank with sight tube for oil catching.

We do have class representatives,John Thomason is the Class C rep. But this is a friendly championship so just ask any racer. Unless you are thrashing the pants of us, then help and advice is always forthcoming.

Cheers
Andy V
- Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
  
  Posted By : David Styles, 23-Jan-2004, 01:02pm
  
  Thanks Andy..
  
  I specifically chose this championship because of the friendliness ! Its just that I wasn't sure if I should be asking someone specific,
  
  or whether you'd all get fed up with me in these early stages when I'm trying to find out whats what..its like trying to find out everything all at once !
  
  So I apologise to everyone for bugging you at the mo !
  
  But hopefully i'm not bugging too much ...
  
  I've wanted to get on a track for a few years now,.. and when Martyns car came up for sale, it just seemed a perfect opportunity !
  
  at the minute the car has 2 x 2L tanks !
  
  and my worse nightmare is to turn up on raceday and be told that I've got something wrong, and so I can't race !
  
  and I want to put the electric water pump that came with the car where one of those tanks is...
  
  So it means that I have to do a bit of moving around...
  
  just deciding how to do it...
  
  and don't want to get it totally wrong due to my initial ignorance.
  
  anyway... thanks again... off to the garage to have a measure up !
  - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
    
    Posted By : John Davies, 23-Jan-2004, 07:04pm
    
    David,
    If you reread the regs, J.20.9.3 makes your situation clear. "In any parallel system of catch tanks, each tank must be not less than half the minimum required capacity" So with TWO 2 litre tanks you easily satisfy the regs. As long as they are connected in parallel, not in series. (2003 MSA Regs)
    Of course anyone with a 2.5 engine, needs a 3 litre tank - don't remember any that big on the TRs!
    
    John
    - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
      
      Posted By : Jon Wolfe, 23-Jan-2004, 07:50pm
      
      Agreed, there seems to be a limit which is acceptable to to scrutineers. I have single catch tank for oil and water on my 4 litre V8 - its an old-spec green BCF fire extinguisher with the top cut off. No way it's 4 litres! It may be 2 at most. Never had a problem.
    - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
      
      Posted By : David Styles, 26-Jan-2004, 10:05am
      
      John..
      
      ah yes... see that was my confusion !
      
      They aren't connected at all.. and the regs are actually for the oil system only...
      
      the car has been through scrutineering many times as is.. so I was being hyper about changing anything...
      
      I was wondering whether I can run a small one for my water.. or even make the two into one,... and if so, could the one be 2 litres...
      
      then as above someone reminded me that the water one isn't infact a catch tank !
      
      Its an expansion tank.
      
      So... I'm leaving the current water one well alone..
      and just moving the oil catch tank to the bulkhead.
      
      it all became clear in the end... !
      
      its nice to only have fiddling with catch tanks to worry about ! I'm not touching anything else on the car really...
      - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
        
        Posted By : Richard King, 26-Jan-2004, 01:01pm
        
        "its nice to only have fiddling with catch tanks to worry about ! I'm not touching anything else on the car really..."
        
        You're making me jealous...
      - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
        
        Posted By : Martyn Adams, 26-Jan-2004, 01:12pm
        
        David,
        The water catch-tank is only a catch-tank not an expansion tank. The outlet from the rad is on the 'atmospheric' side of the cap. Water comes out when the pressure is high enough to lift the spring. To get water from the tank back into the rad would need a vacuum in the rad - not likely and even if there was, the rad-cap seat would be firmly closed.
        
        When I got the car it had a combined oil and water tank. I changed it because water + oil makes a yucky combination. Also, if there was an unusual amount of fluid collected, it'd be easier to tell if it was extra oil or water if they're in separate tanks.
        
        Martyn
        
        Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
        
        Posted By : David Styles, 26-Jan-2004, 01:50pm
        
        Thanks Martyn,...
        
        just got to move the seat now,.... !
        
        Richard...
        
        sorry about that ! but you must realise that the race car is pretty near the bottom of my list of priorities at the minute... what with other stuff thats going on...
        
        Just wait till the season starts... then its me who's going to be the seriously jealous one !
- Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
  
  Posted By : Chris Hamblin, 23-Jan-2004, 01:03pm
  
  Definetly don't run any engine breethers to the expansion bottle, as Andy said, you'll just end up filling your cooling system up with oil which you really don't want to do. You'd find this happened quite quickly, take the rad cap at a med engine temp (more to the point warm it up with it off to a med temp, dont burn yourself) and rev the engine noting how much the fluid level seems to rise and fall with the revs, even that change will transfer a bit of water between rad and overflow.
  
  I dont actually race in the championship but generally that rules there to stop cars dropping oil onto the track which I'm shore you'll aggree is bad, and as older engines generally vent poorly it means they do chuck quite a bit of oil out of breethers, so there just keen to make shore an adequite catch tank for the whole race is in place.
  
  Chris
  - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
    
    Posted By : David Styles, 23-Jan-2004, 01:20pm
    
    thanks guys..
    
    for some reason my brain had totally forgot that the water one works as an expansion tank !
    
    right... I'm off to drill holes in my tyres for weight reduction...
    - Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule
      
      Posted By : Andy Vowell, 23-Jan-2004, 02:11pm
      
      David
      
      When moving the expansion tank around, don't forget the pipe has to reach to the bottom to be able to suck stuff out. Took me half a season of overheating until I realised I got that bit wrong. Doh!
      
      Cheers
      Andy
Catch tanks... can someone help with the rule

Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 23-Jan-2004, 02:15pm

Dave,

As Andy says your Class representatives can answer your 'elligibility' or safety questions once you are registered. These are listed in your regulations book from 2003 and will also be in the Regs book for 2004 (when published).

You can also, of course, ask me as that is a part of my role. And once your start racing you could even go to our 'appointed specialist' Jon Wolfe for advice on Technical regulations.

But I would advise that you take what Martyn has done as compliant with regulations after all it's passed scrutineering a few times already. As for the 'overflow' bottle/tank you could just move it to just outside the radiator to make way for the pump. Or even just hold on a while and have a look see how everyone else has done it.

NiG
TSSC Competition Secretary