Section : General

Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 26-Aug-2006, 08:43pm

Vin of the Bling-man fame has been dreaming, and in his dream he saw a 500BHP per tonne Triumph.

How is he going to realise his dream

Answers please

• Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

  Posted By : Colin Wake, 26-Aug-2006, 09:00pm

  reduce the weight of his car to 400kg by substituting all his steel for tin foil??????
  
  Colin

  • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

    Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 26-Aug-2006, 09:13pm

    Instead of tinfoil, I think it will need to be silvered mylar film !
    
    At 400Kg, he would need 200BHP fom the engine - is this realistic ?

    • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

      Posted By : Jonathan Binnington, 26-Aug-2006, 09:54pm

      buy a 1200 Daytona, they come in yellow

      • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

        Posted By : John Davies, 26-Aug-2006, 11:09pm

        This might get him halfway there:
        http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Triumph-Spitfire-CO...
        
        John

        • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

          Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 26-Aug-2006, 11:50pm

          Rover V8 can produce 300 Bhp with out going full blat... (Wolfie's does 370.. ish) and a spitfire can be as light as 600 KG... I've seen both done and the V8 is as light as the spitfire block... easy peasy...

          • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

            Posted By : David Powell, 27-Aug-2006, 02:09am

            Just don't tell Vin what Jon W spent to get 370HP You could buy a car with 500hp per tonne for the same figure?! Caterham Superlight anyone.

            • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

              Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 27-Aug-2006, 06:55am

              Dave,
              Don't forget that Vin is a cheapskate and doesn't like to spend vast amounts of money on a solution when something cheap and shiny will do the job just as well

          • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

            Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 27-Aug-2006, 06:57am

            600kg Spitfire ?
            
            Can you chrome plate fibreglass ?
            
            Getting 370 BHP from a Rover engine must be expensive - Vin doesn't understand the the word expensive

            • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

              Posted By : Philip Brammer, 27-Aug-2006, 07:59am

              Can Vin not just put a JCB diesel engine in his spitfire? There very quick and he can dig his drive up as well! .....or have I said the wrong thing again?

              • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 27-Aug-2006, 06:42pm

                I'm thinking an auto gearbox would work well if designed for lots of power. What would be the best auto gearbox for this?

                • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                  Posted By : Jonathan Binnington, 27-Aug-2006, 08:12pm

                  vinny. autoboxes horrible unless you have had a leg amputated, go for a five-on-the-floor v8 rov, i know all the tricks now, even able to custom build exhaust mainforldds -- sorry, been drinkingggs h9ic
                  
                  yower mayet binman
                  
                  btwey dyfancy naving for mwe on thisdnight nav thingy in sept, i know you cant raed maps but i need a larff
                  
                  yower blackcounrty mayet
                  
                  buinman

                  • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                    Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 27-Aug-2006, 08:36pm

                    Oklidoklio Bin! (= yes) for the night drive......
                    
                    as for the gearbox, i was thinking that if I have enough power then any shortcomings of a manual over an automatic would be negligeable,
                    
                    and would, as a second spitfire, give me something different to play with, especially as a proposed auto gearbox would have the option of choosing the gears manually as well.
                    
                    with lots of power in a spit with an auto, sub 5 second 0-60 should be easily do-able........

                    • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                      Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 27-Aug-2006, 08:39pm

                      Is it a road car or a dragster we are looking at here ?

                      • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                        Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 27-Aug-2006, 09:32pm

                        Kevin, it's wolf, sheep, cruise, art, engineering, hobby, diversion.....
                        
                        overall to have it look like a spitfire, like my 2.5pi does.

                • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                  Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 27-Aug-2006, 08:34pm

                  With the sort of power you'll need, the auto box sounds a good idea, as you'll need to keep both hands on the wheel when you floor it.
                  The downside will be the efficiency of the torque converter. You're going to loose quite a few horses just running an auto box, so the engine is going to be quite a challenge.
                  Plenty of Yank stuff out there that can handle the power, but you might need to import it.

                  • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                    Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 27-Aug-2006, 08:48pm

                    Kevin, modern gearboxes are more efficient than they used to be, I don't know what all the techi improvements are, but one of them is that in top gear they lock onto 1:1 ratio, where in the past it was close to this but still slipping.
                    
                    also, if using a powerfull engine and gearbox from a large heavy car, then the losses should be minimal with such a light car.
                    
                    efficiency of fuel economy on accelleration is one of those factors that one will choose to overlook for the greater good of the project (and will give it the ecological weight I associated with the build of the 2.5pi!)
                    
                    as for importing, i'm certain there is stuff here with the required power 'out of the box' that is available (even american stuff)
                    
                    project still looking as though it'll go ahead.
                    

                    • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                      Posted By : Chris Taylor, 28-Aug-2006, 04:09pm

                      Modern euro autoboxes are perhaps more efficient than big yank boxes, and maybe physically smaller and so easier to fit into a Spit. Getrag and ZF probably have the euro market cornered in that respect and give you options of 5 or even 6 gears. However you probably need all the electronic controls as well, and some of them need input from or to the engine, so plenty there to keep you out of mischief!
                      The other advantage of an autobox (although I do not actually like them!) is the torque converter tends to cushion the driveline to some extent so giving the u/js and diff a slightly easier life.
                      However you may not have a huge choice of easy fix autoboxes for any particular engine, so it might just be easiest to get the autobox WITH your engine. That way you know it will physically match up, and there will be known info about the installation by referring to the donor vehicle.
                      Although you CAN no doubt get a manual box to take the proposed power output, you will probably find it easier to get an autobox that can cope with such power.

                      • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                        Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 01-Sep-2006, 08:45am

                        Ok, these are my thoughts so far. This is a seriuos project,
                        
                        I want the engine to be big (already got a 2.5 pi so want to go further),
                        
                        biggest engines arouns are v12 - too long,
                        
                        v8 - been done with rovers so in the running,
                        
                        v6 - why have a v6 when you can have a v8?,
                        
                        inline 6 and lower - see previous answer.
                        
                        Alloy lighter than cast iron, so chevy engine nice but heavy.
                        
                        Alloy v8 out of a modern car, out of the box, no modding for more power as takes too long for research, too long to get things ordered, every step costs more money, cost more time and money to put right when 'mods go bad'.
                        
                        With all the power i want an auto box, modern one as there have been leaps and bounds in auto box technology and efficiency and i fancy one for the big engine. Modern ZF gearbox looks like it's 2/3 the legth of an PI saloon o/d box (as i have in my current spit)
                        
                        been looking at 'The Beast' site, spit with a big chevy engine in - using the original chassis and body (modded for rear trans - i can cope with that) so it is possible without making a kit car with a spitfire body. (even uses the spit double wishbones) and is reported to be very stable (even uses 16" wire wheels like I have on my spit! spooky?!?)
                        
                        http://ye-beast.com/
                        
                        http://www.triumphspitfire.com/west.html
                        
                        does all this sound reasonable?
                        
                        
                        

                        • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                          Posted By : Colin Wake, 01-Sep-2006, 11:41am

                          When did you win the lottery Vinnie???
                          
                          
                          
                          Colin

                        • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                          Posted By : Philip Willcocks, 01-Sep-2006, 12:11pm

                          The table below shows the kerbside weight for each of the Spitfire models, dry without fuel. The last column shows the amount of power you will need to generate to gain 500 BHP per (metric) ton.
                          
                          Spitfire......Weight......BHP required
                          Marque..... (Kg)..........for 500BHP/tonne
                          ============================
                          mk1......... 700.......... 350
                          mk2......... 700.......... 350
                          mk3......... 712.......... 356
                          mk4......... 743.......... 371.5
                          1500.........809.......... 404.5
                          
                          By contrast, a standard Lotus Elise Mk1 weighs in at 710 Kg (dry) with a 120BHP engine, so 169 BHP/tonne. So you'll see that the weight of the 'state of the art' Elise is comparable to that of a 1960's steel chassied, steel bodied sportscar.
                          
                          So apart from the logical question of what makes the Elise so lardy(!), it shows that your Spitfire only needs twice the power of an Elise to achieve your target. Now whether you would want to do that is entirely another question.
                          
                          

                          • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                            Posted By : Colin Wake, 01-Sep-2006, 12:26pm

                            More to the point, I want to know what makes a 1500 66kg more lardy than a Mk4.
                            
                            Headrests and a chin spoiler???
                            
                            Colin

                            • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                              Posted By : Philip Willcocks, 01-Sep-2006, 12:33pm

                              I was wondering that too, the figures could be a USA spec 1500, but since it was the figures quoted from this self same website it is unlikely: http://www.tssc.org.uk/spitfire.asp?article=modelr...

                              • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                Posted By : Ian Osprey, 01-Sep-2006, 01:03pm

                                These are dry weights
                                According to haynes, the more realistic kerb weight, since a motor capable of 500bhp/tonne with no fuel is going nowhere!
                                mkI&II = 730kg
                                Mk III = 748
                                mk IV = 720
                                1500 = 843

                                • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                  Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 01-Sep-2006, 02:58pm

                                  So assuming Vin can build a car that weighs in at about 800Kg, including the engine & gearbox, he will need a 400BHP engine.
                                  
                                  As Vin has already said, I think he wants a V8 - he already has a straight 6, and why have a V6 when a V8 will fit.
                                  
                                  So what engines would be suitable
                                  - V8
                                  - aluminium block to keep the weight down,
                                  - an autobox already part of the design
                                  - > 400BHP

                                  • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                    Posted By : Colin Wake, 01-Sep-2006, 03:11pm

                                    JAg XKR8??
                                    
                                    Colin

                                    • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                      Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 01-Sep-2006, 03:17pm

                                      Jag XKR8 - nice engine, but there can't be many of those out there 2nd hand.

                                  • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                    Posted By : Philip Willcocks, 01-Sep-2006, 04:21pm

                                    In answer to why have a V6 when a V8 will fit, the constraint is that he needs to get the weight down to achieve his chosen power to weight ratio. Remove two pistons and a quarter of the engine block and you will have significantly reduced weight.
                                    
                                    And when you lose weight in the engine bay it means you have a lesser requirement for beefed up (and heavier) engine mountings, suspention parts, brakes, wheels and tyres.
                                    
                                    So for every 20kg he loses, he can afford to lose 10BHP to maintain his 500BHP/ton ratio.
                                    A car weighing 800kg requires 400BHP
                                    A car weighing 780kg requires only 390 BHP... and so on...
                                    
                                    Hey Vin, time for a diet !
                                    

                                    • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                      Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 03-Sep-2006, 00:10am

                                      this is a serious project....
                                      
                                      All the replies above seem to converge towards an ideal engine for the goal......
                                      
                                      9 out of 10 for Colin, there is a 1999 400 horse power ally Jag 4.0 litre v8 XJR engine and 5 speed auto zf gearbox residing in my garage courtesy of Saturdays work by myself and Kevin Rochfort. Would have been 10/10 Colin but you said xkr8 (same engine, different body!).
                                      
                                      Keeping it still all British, in the spirit of Triumph!
                                      
                                      This is an ally jag v8 with supercharger all standard 'out of the box' from the factory and relatively compact.
                                      
                                      Power for this xjr engine is 370bhp, i'm calling it a 400bhp engine as I'm taking off the power steering, air con, and removing the two cats for a couple of straight throughs.
                                      
                                      It'll go in a spit chassis (courtesy of Len Jolly - thanks!), which I am not adverse to cutting when required.
                                      
                                      just collecting the parts at the moment as my current spit won't be touched for this project, plan to build next summer.....let the games begin......
                                      
                                      

                                       

                                      
                                      
                                      Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne

                                       

                                      • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                        Posted By : Colin Wake, 03-Sep-2006, 10:29am

                                        Not wishing to be rude Vinnie...
                                        
                                        But what the f*** did that cost you, and have you told the missus yet???
                                        
                                        Colin.
                                        
                                        p.s. most annoying was I was thinking of the saloon XJR, but got the name wrong...

                                        • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                          Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 03-Sep-2006, 11:55am

                                          Colin, a gentleman never tells, like i said before, this project was planned for next summer, alas this was too good an oppertunity to pass up, I followed Trekki advice and as John Luc Picard says "make it so", so i did......
                                          
                                          oh yes, I was that surprised when I got it in the garage and still have a big smile on my face now (much like the smile of a big cat..)
                                          
                                          It does tuck away nicely in the corners of a single garage, and a spitfire chassis blends seemlessly around brickwork!
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          

                                           

                                          
                                          
                                          Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne

                                           

                                          • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                            Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 03-Sep-2006, 01:05pm

                                            Vin,
                                            I've never seen the Garage so tidy - are you sure that 'er indoors doesn't suspect that you're up to something with such a tidy garage.
                                            Kevin

                                            • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                              Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 03-Sep-2006, 07:21pm

                                              Kevin, garage is tidy, but still a one car garage which the spit squeezes in with an inch either side, the spit-jag project is now a sleeper until next summer....unless something for it crops up and it's irresistable!

                                              • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                                Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 03-Sep-2006, 11:33pm

                                                Vin,
                                                If you turn the garage into a double decker garage, 'er indoors is definately going to notice when she opens the door !
                                                Also, are the roof joists strong enough to hang a body tub from ?

                                                • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                                  Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 03-Sep-2006, 11:52pm

                                                  Er yes, a body tub would be noticeable, I thought I was pushing it getting the chassis and engine etc, but it fits quite well and is not noticeable unless your a petrol head (which she isn't by a long way).
                                                  
                                                  If a good body tub came along I'd have to rent a lockup (which is a shame really as I have space on the drive for another car), but it would have to be a very good body tub or complete Spitfire (MK1 D reg if 'you know who you are' is reading this!).
                                                  
                                                  To clarify, a new house beckons me next summer......

                                        • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                          Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 03-Sep-2006, 01:01pm

                                          My lips are sealed !
                                          
                                          All I can say is that it was a very hard days work to extract it, and even though I was wearing latex gloves, my hands will never be the same again. I got through about 20 pairs !
                                          
                                          The Supercharged Jaguars were never really designed to be taken apart - I pity the poor owner who has to stump up for a replacement engine or gearbox AND the Jaguar main dealer labour charge for replacing it. It took Vin and I 9 hours (18 man hours) just to remove it from the car, and we didn't have to be too careful about not damaging bodywork on the donor vehicle.
                                          
                                          It is a monster of an engine, and I'm really looking forward to see how Vin manages to get it in under the bonnet of a Spitfire. I suspect that some major alteration will be necessary. As for rear axle and braking system, it's going to have to be quite serious stuff to handle the power and still stop that car.
                                          
                                          I suspect that a custom sump will be needed so that it will clear the steering rack - moving the rack by more than an inch or so is complicated. The existing sump was damaged / punctured in the accident that wrote off the car, so a new one will be needed anyway.
                                          
                                          From the state of the car it came out of, the engine was obviously running very well at the time of the accident - the driver was very lucky to get out alive (in fact he got out totally un-injured).
                                          
                                          
                                          

                                          • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                            Posted By : John Davies, 03-Sep-2006, 01:51pm

                                            Kevin,
                                            I can recommend the blue vinyl gloves.
                                            Much tougher than latex and they don't deteriorate when soaked in oil.
                                            John

                                            • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                              Posted By : Leon Guyot, 05-Sep-2006, 06:53am

                                              So Vin,
                                              
                                              What are the measurements of this engine?
                                              
                                              Length, Height, Width & Weight...
                                              
                                              and how do they compare with a 2.5PI unit.
                                              
                                              I'm thinking that if you mount it back some, and low in the chassis, it might just fit under a GT6 bonnet?
                                              
                                              Of course, you will have to get a Jaguar differential/driveshafts/brakes to cope with all that power...
                                              
                                              Exciting project.
                                              
                                              Regards
                                              
                                              L&195;&169;on

                                              • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                                Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 05-Sep-2006, 01:47pm

                                                Hello Guy,
                                                
                                                the answer to all the above questions are a bit academic to me, the actual work on the project will begin next summer.
                                                
                                                I'm working on the basis that a rover v8 has successfully fitted to a spit, and a 5.7 chevy engine (see http://ye-beast.com/ )
                                                
                                                the idea of bringing the engine back further towards the middle of the car is a good one,
                                                
                                                The car will be made to fit around the engine, and appropriate rear suspension will be grafted on. Envisaging cutting off the rear suspension part of the chassis and fabricating a cradle, as in the above web site.
                                                
                                                All the development work will be done when we cross those bridges. i get a headache if I start second guessing the fitment, just collecting the parts at the moment if they are irresistable and i can't wait 'till next year.
                                                
                                                It is all ally so weight won't be a problem. Theres no added height of an air cleaner, the zf gearbox is 2/3 the length of my current 2.5pi od gearbox.
                                                
                                                A long time ago I saw a picture of a spit that was cut down the middle and widened by a few inches...could be a possibility....

                                                • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                                  Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 27-Sep-2006, 00:28am

                                                  Quick follow up, there now resides a XJRV8 rear limited slip complete rear axle assembly on top of my workbench.....and a complete front sub assembly, both complete with vented disks the size of dinner plates and the callipers - why do i keep on finding things i 'need'?
                                                  
                                                  On a plus side, the pcd is now going to be 120.65mm 5 stud, which translates to larger BMW wheel pattern and Range Rover. Both models cater well for todays gentleman motorists of discerning tastes for chromed wheels......

                                                  • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                                    Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 27-Sep-2006, 02:15pm

                                                    and here is the rear axel in all its glory

                                                     

                                                    
                                                    
                                                    Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne

                                                     

                                                    • Vin has a dream - 500 BHP/tonne 

                                                      Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 27-Sep-2006, 02:39pm

                                                      Pic's a bit dark as we were sneaking it into the garage at 10pm at night...... the mission was successful.