Your Triumph and the Law.

General Legal Issues messages

Hi, I nearly bought a Vitesse yesterday. I haven't backed out of the purchase, but as yet haven't parted with any cash. I have been offered a 2 litre MK1 saloon with overdrive. The car is in white with black trim, has twin chromed tailpipes, GT6 wheels, very, very nice condition with only a few edgy bits to tidy up. The car has a full MOT, drives superbly and I was able to whittle the seller down from Â£2695 to Â£2300, which I think is probably the upper end of what it should go for. The thing is this, the seller is unable to produce a valid V5 logbook apparently it is "lost", the keys although operate the ignition and drivers door, don't operate anything else. The VIN plate is missing from the bulkhead but is loose in the glovebox and the engine number is an ME series, probably from a MK2 big saloon. There is some history with the car like some old MOTs and a few bills and bits and bobs but I am reluctant to hand over Â£2300 in cash for a car that doesn't have a V5. My gut feeling tells me something smells fishy, the seller seems a nice enough guy, but with the loose VIN plate, no V5, odd and missing keys, engine number that doesn't tie up with the HPI report that I had done (I know not everyone reports engine number changes). In the same position, what would you do? Incidently, according to the DVLA the car is registered recently on a SORN, the car looks very much like it has been loved, how do I know that the car is what the seller says it is?

Mark

I would not go ahead as it sounds like a ringer, to gain an mot the vin plate should be attached to the bulkhead, did the vin number match the records with the dvla, to declare sorn you need the log book or the number that is only on the log book or the tax renewal form, you keep the renewal form so they should have this! to gain a log book now costs about Â£25.00 and this is notified to the owner home address before a new one is issued. again the mot should now be a computerised one, you can check with dvla if the mot is genuine with vin number and reg number on record with one on car. I hope this of any help

You have confirmed my suspicions and doubts about the car. It seems odd. I would perhaps take a chance with a ferw hundred quid but this seems like a classic case of car ringing even if he does own it! I think I'll move on to the next one and give tis car a miss! Thanks for your advice. Mark

I would not necessarily back out, but would get more info. Most of our cars could be considered ringers after a restoration. The Herald and Vitesse perhaps more than most due to the meccano body construction means that major parts get swapped between vehicles. Yes arguably that does mean that many perfectly competently done restorations should be running on Q plates as they do not have the necessary percentage of original parts in the construction, if you were to apply the same rules as apply to kit cars!
"Ringers" as such ring alarm bells for two reasons; firstly they may be illegal, and secondly they may be dangerous as a it may be a "cut and shut" job on a written-off body shell.
It strikes me you can form your own opinion as to whether the car is a dangerous bodge or a competently maintained or restored car. So it comes down as to whether or not the car is illegal. Vitesses are not the most lucrative vehicles nowadays for dodgy dealing or theft, but basic checks should be carried out.
I would not be too bothered by the engine number. My Herald had had a replacement engine in it, not shown in the logbook (not even the green card one!) for over 15 years when I dismantled it for rebuilding, and I know that that must have happened with one of the first couple of owners in its first 4 years of life.
However first and foremost the seller must have proof of entitlement to sell. Ie, is it his car? Has he valid (and hopefully verifiable) explanations for the problems you have found? Is he the registered keeper (not the same as owner, but a first clue) of the vehicle. If the car is SORNED, does he have the SORN declaration or even the renewal application? Is there any other documentation to back up proof of ownership? (Even a previous receipt for purchase, or maybe previous MOTs and receipts for the test or any work from the garage?) Do any of those previous MOTs reconcile the registration number and commission number? Does the loose chassis plate appear correct for the model of car it purports to be (HC prefix, DL suffix for a saloon, CV for a convertible). Although paint and trim can often be swapped, is there correlation between the trim and paint codes and the car itself.
If the car does seem sound and the sort of car and price you are looking for, will the seller accept a documented and preferably refundable deposit from you while proof of ownership and vehicle authenticity is obtained?
If the seller clams up, or even lowers the price at this point, walk away. If he is prepared to work with you, then it might be worth persevering.

If you feel at all nervous then you should walk away, there are plnty of other good cars out there, and the seller probably won't care too much as a good car will sell pretty easily providing he makes all the paperwork available, and if he is the genuine owner this won't be difficult so why hasn't he done it already?

Silly question but why don't you say to the owner to request a copy of the V5 from swansea, I think you can do it on line but with out the V5 you can't prove owenership. Once he has the V5 then go ahead with the sale.

Don't by a car without a log book as there is no proof of ownership. I wouldn't be too worried about Vin plate in the glovebox aslong as you the the car is safe.

Regards

Martin

You don't need to have a VIN plate on a pre-1980 car to gain an MOT. It just helps.

And don't bank on them writting to the previous owner when you apply for a duplicate!!!!! If they do write, and subsequently get no reply, they send the V5 out. I have received a V5 that had no details at all matching apart from the REG no. in the past, and that after I wrote a note on the application form questioning if the Reg no. was correct.

If a VIN appears on teh computerised MOT, it will have been taken from the DVLA records, not the car itself in all probabilities. So again not a good check.

They don't care about old cars. Period.

Cheers

Colin

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