Section : General

General Legal Issues messages

Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats

Posted By : Richard Truscott, 15-Jul-2006, 05:59pm

As I understand things from September all children under a certain height will be required to have a child seat etc. Are there exemptions for classics. I have fitted rear lap belts to my Vitesse Conv, but if I put the kids' booster seats in, they are too high and uncomfortable, and the lap straps barely fit across them. Sat just on the seat the belts fit fine, and the kids are comfy (and quietish!).

Followups :

Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats

Posted By : Mike Crewes, 16-Jul-2006, 08:04pm

Richard

I have not heard of this, what is your source? It is unlikely that it can be enforced in vehicles that are not correctly equipped. Road Traffic legislation is rarely retrospective, but I will try and find out.

Regards
Mike
- Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
  
  Posted By : Duncan Edwards, 17-Jul-2006, 04:40pm
  
  interesting I have just found this on the think road safety web site
  
  "Children under 3 years MUST use the child restraint appropriate for their weight in all cars, vans and other goods vehicles, with the single exception for the rear of taxis. They cannot travel otherwise. This means for example that they may not travel in cars, vans or goods vehicles which do not have seat belts installed."
  it would appear that they are making this law retrospective and is in force from the 18th September this year
  
  see http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childc... for full details
  - Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
    
    Posted By : Mike Crewes, 17-Jul-2006, 04:54pm
    
    Thanks Duncan
    
    I'll start my research there, but it seems pretty conclusive.
    
    Regards
    Mike
    - Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
      
      Posted By : Richard Truscott, 17-Jul-2006, 06:58pm
      
      I am meeting a friend of mine from the DSA in a couple of days - I'll try to get some more info. What I have read is that children under I think 4'7" have to ride in the back with an appropriate child seat and seat belt. It is part of the Road Safety Bill that is either still going through or which has just received Royal Ascent.
      
      I'll come back when I have more and more accurate info
      
      Richard
      - Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Richard Truscott, 17-Jul-2006, 07:07pm
        
        Sorry - just read the posting by Duncan. This is it. It seems that from September no child under 3 may be carried in a car which is not fitted with rear belts capable of supporting an appropriate child restraint. This is likely to include the vast majority of our members, with the possible exception of late Dolomites? There are no exemptions, from which I infer if a kid under 3 is to be carried in any members' classic, it will have to have rear belts fitted which can accommodate a child seat - good practice anyway, but now it seems law!
        
        If I read this correctly, for kids over three, but under the height threshold, they can be carried in the back, un harnessed, but must always wear an adult belt in the front (no change from current legislation). Thus to answer my own question it seems they will be legal harnessed with just the lap strap in the back of my Vitesse.
        
        Maybe worth highlighting in your bit in the Courier, Mike?
        
        Regards
        
        Richard
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Duncan Edwards, 18-Jul-2006, 06:44pm
        
        Think I might just get away with it if Im reading it right I have a 6 year old who always sits in the back and a 13 year old who nearly always sits in the front looks like it only applies if you have a child under 3
        
        http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childc...
        
        15. Do the rules apply in cars not fitted with seatbelts?
        "Children under 3 must use the appropriate child restraint in all cases - there is no exemption for them in vehicles with no seatbelts in the rear, such as classic cars. However, children 3 years to 135 cms height may be carried in the rear of vehicles without restraints but they can only go in the front if they use the correct child seat or booster."
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : John Donovan, 18-Jul-2006, 07:11pm
        
        Oh dear Now I am confused - So my Vitesse HAS seat belts fitted in the rear - lap belts as was appropriate in 1970!
        What on earth is an appropriate booster for a lap belt?
        The intention (I imagine) was to ensure that modern 3 point belts cross the body in the correct way and not sit accross the throat.
        
        Mike - I think more detail is needed.
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Richard Truscott, 18-Jul-2006, 10:35pm
        
        There two key issues here. Children under 3, and children over 3 but under four foot seven inches.
        
        There are no exemptions for children under 3. Hence any child under 3 cannot be carried in any vehicle, classics included which cannot accomodate the appropriate child restraint. That will include vehicles that are fitted with only lap straps in the rear, as these will not appropriately secure the preparatory restraints for children of this age group - hence if you want to carry under 3's we are talking full seat belts.
        
        The law seems less clear for children between 3 and 4 ft 7". I am working with people from the DSA (Driving Standards Agency) tomorrow, and it is they who have penned this Road Safety legislation. I will try to post again tomorrow or Thursday, and will e-mail Mike. Whatever the outcome, it is clearly going to affect us as classic owners if we convey children in our cars...as I and many others will.
        
        Regards
        
        Richard
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Susan Hare, 18-Jul-2006, 11:07pm
        
        I am following this with real interest. We have a 6 month old baby and the seat she has can be used with just a lapbelt. It is a well known make and obviously meets the kite mark standards required on a child seat.
        
        Does this mean that we will be unable to use it in the rear of the vehicle even though the seat is designed for the 3 point harnes and/or lapbelt?
        
        I await with interest as to the next instalment
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Mark Edwards, 19-Jul-2006, 09:53am
        
        Sue,
        
        I would be interested to know the make and model of your child seat that can be used with just the lapstrap, we have a 1 yo and are thinking about having another. If you dont want to post the details on the board perhaps you might pm me or email trader90@aol.com.
        
        Thanks Mark
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Claire Hill, 19-Jul-2006, 12:28pm
        
        We have a seven year old who is very small for her age and two other teenage children. If we have to fit a booster seat in the rear of the Vitesse or Stag it means that we will probably have to stop taking the Triumphs on as many events as we will not fit the kids in.
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Susan Hare, 19-Jul-2006, 02:04pm
        
        Mark,
        
        I have sent you the details as I have them, just let me know if you want any further information.
        
        Sue
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Mark Astley, 19-Jul-2006, 04:32pm
        
        Hi,
        I have one, it is a Britax Freeway seat. Only forward facing so no good for newborns, but I used the Britax rock-a-tot in all my cars. The biggest difficulty is getting one where the hole the belt goes through is high enough above the car seat so that the car seat belt buckle is below the hole in the child seat. Once you have one though it is more likely to be safe in other cars as the seatbelt stalk length can vary quite a bit.
        
        I have used this in my Spitfire (Mothercare staff checked fitting before we bought it) and 2000 saloon (all three point belts) but also on just the lap strap in the centre of our modern car, still okay after 5 years use.
        Go to www.mothercare.com and have a look.
        Yours
        Mark
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Richard Truscott, 19-Jul-2006, 07:45pm
        
        Ok folks - had a meeting with DSA friends today, and confirmed the following. It broadly repeats the contents of the weblink further up on these postings and my posting of yesterday.
        
        There are two elements to this - children up to three. Then over three and up to 4ft 7inchs.
        
        For the first there are no exemptions at all. A full child seat and harness is required, and as such must be secured by three point full seat belt, irrespective of whether the child travels in the front or back. Consequently classic owners carrying children of this age in the back of their vehicles or in the front would have to have a full seat belt fitted to secure the child seat.
        
        For children over three but under the height threshold, if threepoint full seatbelts are fitted, these must be used with an appropriate child seat for this age group (from which I deduce at least the booster seat type of seat). If no seat belts or lap straps are fitted this requirement ceases, and there is no retrofit requirement for full seatbelts as there is for under threes.
        
        I have read the postings above which show there to be a child seat that can be used with just a lap strap. I am unfamiliar with this. It may be prudent to check specifically with the Driving Standards Agency helpline to confirm this complies with the Road Safety Bill. Common sense suggests that any seat of this type has to be better than none at all, however, sadly, common sense is often not the best tool to use in conjunction with legislation!
        
        I hope this helps.
        
        Richard
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Andy Cook, 19-Jul-2006, 10:31pm
        
        So if you have a kiddie under 3 years old this in effect just means that they will have to be in a child seat in the front seat of a classic car if it has no rear seat belts.
        
        So if you own say a Stag or Vitesse with no rear belts and have a kiddie uner 3 the Kiddie will need to be in the front and if both Mum and Dad are in the car one of the "growed ups" will need to be in the back. Not really a show stopper, and only an issue if you have more than one Kid under 3.
        
        My Boy has been travelling in the front of my GT6 since he was about 3 years old which is when he was heavy enough to graduate to the booster type seat. Not sure that the picture below would be legal anymore though with my boy aged 3 in his booster seat on the passenger side and my daughter aged 1 in the drivers seat!
        
        Good job they are both now over 3.....
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : John Donovan, 20-Jul-2006, 08:28pm
        
        This neatly encapsulates the reason that retrospective legislation is normally avoided.
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats
        
        Posted By : Colin Wake, 21-Jul-2006, 01:55pm
        
        It looks like someone took their eye off the ball here (possibly the FBHVC??) when this was all going through, just like the motorcycle lobby did a few years ago.
        
        And they got weel and truely stuffed with stupid legislation.
        
        They won't be making that mistake again, and hopefully neither will the car lobby from now on.
        
        Cheers
        
        Colin
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats - UPDATE FROM DSA
        
        Posted By : Susan Hare, 21-Jul-2006, 02:45pm
        
        As I was slightly confused by some of the new legislation I emailed the DSA and specifically asked if lapbelts could be used in the rear of a vehicle and this is the response I got:
        
        Thanks for your e-mail. In case you have not seen it, our information page at http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childc... has the details of the changes coming into force on 18 september.
        
        In brief, children up to 135 cms must use the correct child seat/booster with very few exceptions. Lap belts are mandated under the seat belt installation regulations and must be used if they are fitted. So what you are doing with your child's seat is the right thing.
        
        You will see from the table in Q1 on the information page that for children 3 years to 135 cms in height, the requirement to use child restraints in the rear is conditional on seat belts being fitted. So if belts are fitted, then the child must use the correct child seat/booster. If there are no belts, then they can travel unrestrained under the seat belt wearing regulations. They must use the correct child seat/booster in the front seat with no exceptions
        
        Note that children under 3 years must use the correct child seat at all times in front or rear seats (ie they cannot travel unless they are using their child seat).
        
        Hope this is helpful.
        
        This answered my query but the information pages listed give more detail in general.
        
        Sue
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats - UPDATE FROM DSA
        
        Posted By : Mike Crewes, 22-Jul-2006, 07:08pm
        
        Sue et. al.
        
        Thanks to everybody who has raised my awareness of this issue and to Sue who found all the info. I hope to do a Cop Shop Column on this very soon.
        
        Happy motoring to all the kids.
        Regards
        Mike
        
        Road Safety Bill - Rear Child Seats - UPDATE FROM DSA
        
        Posted By : Susan Hare, 23-Jul-2006, 11:45pm
        
        No problem Mike. Obviously this is an important issue that affects us all with children. The good thing about the details is it seems to be written in terms the average person can understand!
        
        At first it seemed to be quite complex but on reading it for your individual circumstances it seems quite self explanatory.
        
        Sue