Your Triumph and the Law.

They've got me riled. You can tell that I'm riled because I am about to quote a passage of law. And I'm not a lawyer... just a 30 year old grumpy old man. So when I start quoting the law it mean someone has upset me enough for me to go out of my way to research it.

Section 14 (para 3) of "The Road Vehices (Regulations and Licensing) Regualtions 2002" says as follows:

(3) Where the Secretary of State believes that the particulars in the registration document issued in respect of a vehicle are inaccurate -

C) after correcting the particulars he shall, unless he has not received the registration document as required by paragraph (2) and subject to regulation 15, send a registration document containing the correct particulars to the registered keeper.

So why is it, then, that every time I buy a vehicle that was constructed before January 1973, I end up having change the taxation class?

After all, was it not the Secretary of State who introduced the historic vehicle taxation class? Would it not be reasonable, therefore, for him to believe that the particulars of quite a large number of cars might well be innaccurate?!? Should he not have taken steps to correct them? It wouldn't exactly be very difficult to update the database, would it!

If I were a cynic, I might suspect that the reason the DVLA hasn't run a simple update on their data is that quite a number of people carry on paying tax when they don't need to... and the extra revenue is very nice thank you! But I'm not a cynic, so I'll put it down to incompetent negligence.

I'm starting a campaign! I will not rest until the DVLA pull their fingers out and update their data. The ladies of the Stafford Women's Institute have agreed to bake cakes to raise the war-chest I will need.

and I thought I got a bee in my bonnet!!!

Actually, the Historic Taxation class was introduced as a European Union Directive.

The conservative Government of the day was unable to prevent it. They didn't particularly like it, as it reduced one of their many opportunities to screw Joe-public motorist for money, however, they made political capital of it and claimed it as their largess!

The following labour government, (known motorist haters), were also unable to over-turn it, but they did somehow contrive to put a halt to the rolling exemption at 1973?

I think that may go some way to answer your question...

Best Regards

L&195;&169;on

ps. Here in Oregon, USA, I pay $104/bi-annually in road tax, (registration fee), for my Vitesse, but if I buy appropriate yellow on blue historic plates, (originally issued in 1963), on the internet, I can apply for a one-time only historic classification and pay one time only for ever, but needless to say, such plates are a tad expensive.

Best Regards

L&195;&169;on

That would certainly explain why I couldn't find any reference to the historic vehicle taxation class in primary and secondary UK legislation.

But in many ways it doesn't get the Secretary of State for Transport off the hook (and I use the term to mean the office of SoS, rather than the incumbent). The fact that he has not updated the register means that he is still - at the very least - negligent. Unless, of course, he claims not to know of the EU Directive!

Anyway, I'm looking for a name for my campaign. I've got as far as:

Campaign to Update New Tax...

Suggestions welcome!

Oooooh, nasty abbriviation

it's been a long day

Auto Revenue Source Elimination Society

that's rough and i'm ashamed

Calvin

Taxi!

Neal

You will need to find the ammendment to the act, all you have there is the original, which will have been ammended. The original act will not be rewritten, but an ammendment will have been issued.

Sorry, but let the bee out from under the bonnet!
Regards
Mike

It may indeed be that the 2002 regulations have now been superseeded (though I couldn't find and subsequent legislation), but since the historic vehicle taxation class pre-dates the 2002 regulations then the SoS was (as I interpret it) breaking the law at that point at thich they were brought into force.

You seem to find it difficult to believe that the government might break the law. I am a civil servant, so I know only too well that they do it all the time! It's not good enough... and I feel totally justified in having a bee under bonnet.

I agree, the government, (probably all governments), break laws all the time.

Otherwise, all the road signs in the UK would be in Kilometers and not Miles, and all the speed limit signs would be in kmh and not in mph! (unless they have done that since I emigrated, but I doubt it).

But it's OK to lock a greengrocer in jail for selling a pound of apples to a granny!!!

Sounds fair and equitable, doesn't it?

Regards

L&195;&169;on

(ex-Civil Servant 21 years)

neal, my advice, don't give yourself a stroke about it, just do something about it!

boil the problem down to a succinct sentence, no more than 20 words

get on top of all the relevant Acts and Statutory Instruments

show what is not being followed according to the law - again be brief

write to the govt about it copying every relevant authority into your correspondence

be prepared to use embarassement as a tool

j

Neal

Don't kid yourself, I know only too well which bodies break the law continously and that doesn't exclude my bosses!

Leon

Great to hear from you, but the UK has an exemption. No doubt it will all change when we drive on the other side, but there I go again!!!

Regards
Mike

I know I am going to regret this, but let's hear it for the defence!!

Neal, when you say you have had to change the tax class, was that on one of the old style logbooks or one of the new V5C's?

If the old style registration document, it is highly likely the tax classification on the DVLA record was changed, but simply does not appear on your document. Another scenario would be that the vehicle was offroad before the SORN notification process came to pass, and as such has not had to be shown SORN each year. As such the vehicle would not have been updated until it either fell to be put back onto the road and taxed, or a change of keeper occurred, hence that may have fallen to you if the vehicle was previously SORN.

Of course you could be right, it is a major conspiracy and we should start a campaign. My preference though would be to tax little old ladies pushing shopping trollies in Tescos on a Saturday morning. The damage they do to unwilling husbands far outweighs anything the DVLA does!!

Richard

Richard,

More than happy for the case for the defence to be put - hence the question mark at the end of the topic title. The V5 is of the new type (issued when I purchased the vehicle).

Your SORN scenario is probably correct; though I still maintain that the SoS has a responsibility to update the register whether or not the vehicle is on the road.

Incidentally, I first got into my current debate with the men from Swansea because of SORN. They refused to accept my SORN declaration until an arrears of duty was paid. I refused to pay on the grounds that the duty should not have been payable in the first place, so I could not possibly be in arrears. And then they told me that I was unable to change the taxation class until I relicenced the vehicle... which I had no intention of doing because the vehicle was off the road... which is why I wanted to SORN it in the first place...

Neal

Hi & thanks Neal

I confess surprise that back duty is being sought if the vehicle is clearly within the historic tax classification. On that at least, I hope matters have been resolved.

In terms of legal responsiblity to update the DVLA record, generally that responsibility lies with the registered keeper of the vehicle, but before you leap, the exception would be a blanket change such as that for classic cars some time back.

At the point this change occurred, some classic or to give them their proper name, historic vehicles had been scrapped, but not notified to the DVLA. Others, no doubt like yours remained legitimately off road, awaiting restoration, but obviously not liable to tax. The "grandfather rights" for those vehicles not to have to SORN every year has been ongoing, but differentiating those scrapped and those genuinely offroad was a virtually impossible task for DVLA.

The introduction of the V5C last year was the DVLA attempt to capture all registered vehicles, and to update the record for those no longer in existence. Incidentally for those classic owners that did not want to lose their original paperwork, these could be submitted to the DVLA with a request to return them once marked cancelled. As such the full vehicle history would remain intact. So, be very wary of any vehicle that does not have one of the new V5C's. It is my understanding that all legitimate vehicles should now have one of these, and it is an offence not to have updated registration documents to this format...hence the widespread publicity program last year ("your vehicle is not legit without one" I think was the buzz phrase) and the current program ("you can't escape the computer" a slightly more naff update!). As such if your experience was this year, with the old style document until, you re-registered it, the vehicle may well not have been recognised by the DVLA in that the previous keeper did not comply with the above.

The accuracy of the DVLA record is very high (contrary to press reports), with traceability of vehicles even higher (e.g. errors in the record may surround colour etc rather than ability to trace a registered keeper). If you have encountered two instances, as you describe, and my assumptions above are incorrect, you are indeed unfortunate. If that is the case, a note or phone call seeking explanation to DVLA Customer Enquiry Contact Centre at Swansea should provide explanation...the address is on the Agency website (www.dvla.gov.uk or via Direct.gov - www.direct.gov.uk/motoring). I suspect though, you fall into one of the scenarios above...let me know.

Joke as I did earlier, I think it unlikely that we have a conspiracy on our hands...contact the above, and they will hopefully resolve it for you. If not, escalate it to the Agency Customer Service Manager, whose address also appears on the website.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Richard

Section : Vehicle Licence (Road Tax)

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

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Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?

Secretary of State for Transport - Law breaker?