Speeding limits.
Posted By : Philip Willcocks, 19-Oct-2004, 03:04pm
Colin,
It does sound overzealous to me, but then again it should also be noted that 30 + 10% is only 33mph so she could have been borderline anyway.
10% on top of 70mph still only gives you 77mph!
Was this an article or a reader's letter in The Telegraph?
It does sound overzealous to me, but then again it should also be noted that 30 + 10% is only 33mph so she could have been borderline anyway.
10% on top of 70mph still only gives you 77mph!
Was this an article or a reader's letter in The Telegraph?
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Colin Wake, 19-Oct-2004, 05:38pm
1 of each.
Colin-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Van Hamlin, 19-Oct-2004, 09:50pm
The speed limit is just that - a limit. 31 in a 30 zone is an offence, as is 71 in a 70 zone. This has always been the case. I believe that these speeds are not high enough to trigger the cameras, and it is also quite possible that some cars have speedos that read low, but that is not the point. It is the actual speed you are travelling at which determines whether or not you are breaking the law.
If you want to check the accuracy of your speedo at motorway speeds you can do it against the distance signs on the motorway. For example drive at a constant indicated 60 and if your speedo is accurate the distances on the signs will go down at a rate of 1 mile per minute. Do this while you are on a long journey anyway and if you do it for 50 miles or so you can get a very good idea how accurate your speedo is (at 60) by comparing the miles covered and the time taken. Go by the miles shown on the signs not the odometer as this may be out.
It is possible to make small adjustments to the speedo reading by taking the needle off and putting it in a slightly different position. It is also possible that your speedo is wrong in the first place simply because someone has already done this, for example if they had to remove the speedo face for some reason.
Van
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 19-Oct-2004, 10:44pm
Sorry Van... you can't do that... the distance signs on the motorway are not accurate not even the little posts (forget their names). The way to do that is to find a measured mile and time yourself along it at a constant speed. Matching a constant speed during a journey is also very difficult and possibly dangerous. You should be watching the traffic more than your speedo.
And you seem to have missed the point about speedo accuracy. Most people don't know by how much their speedo is out. They may guess that it reads over/under but don't know what it accuracy actually is and most people won't bother finding out.
Everyone (except us classic owners) take their speedo as acurate and the law understands that they cannot all be calibrated everyday. So there is an 'allowance', on a modern car this allowance was +20% so the error would have the speedo reading over if anything. When our cars were made the margin was +/- 10%. So this is what sparks the debate as to whether a driver was knowingly speeding and actually speeding - hence the 10% allowance (margin for error).
Moving the speedo needle won't work either as in tests every speedo reads a different error margin at different speeds. I've seen the results they usually show a plus error at low speeds and a minus error at high speeds - so as long as you drive at medium speeds you should be okay
As far as the article goes it is possible the car was travelling fast enough to trigger the camera but was decellerating at the time. So in the split second the camera triggered the cars calcuated speed was much lower. But of course the picture had been taken by then as the fine was applied. Of course the papers won't tell you that bit if they want everyone to be outraged, remember they are selling you an idea and a story, they want you to agree with their point of veiw.
Mike Crewes has posted to this messageboard on this subject before and some of my information comes from that. The rest is conjecture.
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 20-Oct-2004, 02:02pm
One method of checking our speedos should perhaps be to follow a police vehicle (non blue light of course) within any given speed limit. However, every police vehicle I have ever been behind indicates the speedo, on each of my cars, to be over reading - or, could it possibly be that our enforcers themselves, also regularly break the speed limit ...? Should this indeed be the case, I wonder who procecutes them.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 20-Oct-2004, 02:12pm
...or you could just drive by them on the motorway at ever increasing speeds and when they turn the blue lights on, that'll be there way of telling you you have passed the 70 mark
I forgot to mention in my earlier post that even the measuring devices the police use have a margin for error even though they are calibrated every day - and that gives another reason for the 10% allowance. However, we must remember this 'allowance' is discretionary, like road tax evasion (two weeks) and parking tickets (2 minutes), etc... we've all heard of them.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 20-Oct-2004, 04:39pm
Don't think any of my cars are fast enough, Nigel - can I borrow one of yours ?-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 21-Oct-2004, 08:17am
Lol... the one I'm thinking of isn't allowed on the road
.... no
headlights, no indicators, no speedo, no horn, LOUD exhaust and gets about 12 MPG!!!
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 21-Oct-2004, 02:53pm
Hmm... Sounds like one of the police vehicles I followed !-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Tim Scrivens, 01-Nov-2004, 08:02am
I object to inapproprate use of Speed Cameras and any revenue only collecting activities carried out by local constabularies.
Put a speed camera outside every school in the country and cover the towns with them, the majority of 30mph speeds are there for a reason. I'd have no objection with that. But Tallivans on motorways.
Having read through the rants on this thread I think the bottom line is the one I always had:
INAPPROPRATE SPEED IS DANGEROUS.
Inapproprate is the important word. End of story really, as for the statistics quoted on here - I'm amazed that someone actually belives the statics published by the govt.
Having covered 300+ miles this weekend travelling to Club HQ and back, the biggest danger on UK roads is the level of competance and consideration shown by most road users. On the whole it is atrocious, education not penalisation is the answer, and no I don't mean sitting people in a room and showing them films of road accidents. A more comprehensive Driving test, at perhaps triple the cost and covering all aspects of driving, including Motorways, using the Roadcraft manual rather than just learing to pass a test combine that with refresher courses and traffic police who want to improve the skills of drivers rather than just meet their required quotas of NIPs and I'm sure we'd be on our way to safer roads.
I used to cover many thousand miles each year, I now try and avoid it at all cost, the roads are dangerous due to overcrowding and lack of skills.
Tim-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 01-Nov-2004, 09:07am
"I'm amazed that someone actually belives the statics published by the govt."
... you can't be a sceptic all your life, but
anyhow, you should have noticed that we have already said that the government are trying to prove that their
speed cameras are cutting accidents so we expect the figure quote to have been 'massaged' to their lowest
levels... which actually makes them more disturbing
... I'll say it again, accidents will always happen, but the slower you are travelling at the time the more chance you have of walking away. You never know when the accident is going to happen so sticking to the speed limits will improve your chances (and the poor bu**ers you collect on the way).
And the other side of your point... when IS it appropriate to speed?-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Tim Scrivens, 01-Nov-2004, 10:23am
With the greatest respect, if you are unaware as to when speed is inappropriate then perhaps you are one of the tens of thousands that need a refresher course, but since your car control is most certainly better than most your safe limits may be different and I'm sure you unconsciously constantly asses the road conditions and adapt your driving accordingly.
Nigel, please reread my comments, I did not say it was okay to speed, what I said was that the danger is INAPPROPRATE SPEED be that 40 mph around a roundabout or 70 on a conjested dual carriageway.
As for believing this (or any) govt. Not a chance, I'm not a sceptic, I'm a realist. There have been many, many claims over the past few years relating to speed that have had to be retracted, purely because they are lies. This is unfortunately a fact of modern media driven politics, we are fed the information in a form the politicians want us to believe. Please have a look on here: http://www.abd.org.uk/
As for speed being a factor in accidents... if we all stayed at home then I guess the statistics for people being killed on the roads would look very healthy.
I have 2 very powerful cars, both of which are easily capable of speeds double that of our motorways, but I consider myself a carful and considerate driver, I am not a hooligan I consider the use of speed, these factors a substantiated by both my clean driving licence and accident free driving career, other than a minor indescression in my Supra many years ago, that was a prime example of inapproprate speed, I acceleterated away from traffic lights, not particularly agressively, only to hit wet leaves and with freshly fitted rear tyres lost traction and bounced the Supra off the curb and rolled across a dual carrageway at speeds well below the legally set speed, the estimated speed at the time was no more than 30mph. Inappropriate speeds in a RWD car with no TC and factory fresh tyres, later in the day this accident would probabally not have happened, my tyres would have been scrubbed in and the sun would have dried the slippery leaves.
I stand by my initial comments: WE NEED TO EDUCATE THE DRIVERS IN THIS COUNTRY.
Tim-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 01-Nov-2004, 10:46am
Tim... It was a rhetorical question and not aimed at your good self.
As for the Association of British Drivers, well, they too will have an axe to grind and will be biasing their information towards their view point... afterall that's what the media does and by publishing such a website they are joining in that game.
The unfortunate truth is that it is very hard to know what to believe these days of media spin and activist groups...
There was a sci-fi show on in the 90s that summed it up very well in a simple quote... "The truth is a three edged sword, there is your truth, there is their truth and then there is the actual truth!"
Will we ever know the real truth and if we did would we know we knew it??...err, head hurts now
I suppose the last line is.. that if a person drives irresonsibly and causes an accident they should expect to be held accountable.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Tim Scrivens, 01-Nov-2004, 10:58am
Yep, I know what you mean about paying for accidents, after mine I paid for it by driving a very rusty and battered B Reg Mazda Pick-up for 2 yrs while I saved to replace my beloved MkI Supra. Oh the joys of TPF&T.
Tim-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 01-Nov-2004, 11:07am
Hehe... Ooops!
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Mike Crewes, 01-Nov-2004, 11:32am
Tim, NiG and everyone else.
The whole point of speed limits in the first place was, because no driver could be trusted to use the appropriate speed, so we all had to have ourt speed curtailed.
Who's to say the my (or your) judgement is any better than anyone elses? And there lies the dilemma, speed limits and speed enforcement!
Thanks to all who have taken the time to debate, it has been very good.
Regards (and safe driving)
Mike-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Tim Scrivens, 01-Nov-2004, 11:47am
I can understand that Mike, but taking you BiB hat off for just a sec, do you not agree that the standard of driving on our roads as a whole are unacceptable.
I know your day job and I for one wouldn't swap with you for all the tea in China, without sticking your neck out too much on the whole are accidents caused by innapropriate speed, i.e within legal limits, or by lack of skill, or are the majority of accidents genuinely caused by people speeding i.e speeds in excess of the predetermined limit.
Nice pic in the Courier btw - bernie looks to have Photoshopped out the ear of corn that you had coming from the corner or your mouth.
ATB
Tim-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Mike Crewes, 09-Nov-2004, 09:16am
Tim
I would agree that the standard of driving on British roads is declining and that is the major cause of collisions. However, within that is inappropriate speed for the conditions. Inappropriate speed is the single most killer on British roads.
There are several reasons for this, cars isolate and protect occupants better, there is frustration at the necessary, often low, limitation of speed and road engineering has made it easier to drive.
My point was, and all CIs will have similar points, no matter what speed YOU think is appropriate, slowing down will give YOU more time to react to any hazards and make YOUR driving safer. Police drivers never drive at 100%, they always back off a bit to give a safety margin, we should all do this all the time.
Thanks for your kind (?) comments about my new pic. It was taken when I went to Goodwood Revival dressed in 50s gear (well that's my excuse anyway).
Regards
Mike-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Jonathan Binnington, 09-Nov-2004, 09:15pm
"never drive at 100%, ... always back off a bit to give a safety margin" mike crewes
that is the most sensible thing I have heard or read on this subject for a very long time
and that will be my only contribution to this message
binman-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 11-Nov-2004, 10:48pm
I have been heartened to have read the National Safety Camera Programme document, which was issued this month, for 2005/2006. The Department of Transport has issued a clear directive to put an end to instances of blatant fund-raising activities via. speed cameras. The Programme requires new sitings and associated activities to be determined through proper methods primarily relating to reviewing, improving and maintaining road safety. Interestingly, we should also see the end of the days of unmarked vehicles being parked up 'in the hedgerows' in order to clock up the issue of penalty notices. No longer either, will those parties be able to keep the cash which has been gleaned from covert camera operations - these will be need to be operated as a safety measure only. Sitings will need to be based upon an ability to prove an agreed safety need. At last ! Good news indeed, for those of us who, over the years, have become increasingly dismayed at the respective increased profusion of these rather questionable practices. I would recommend all to read through these guidelines, carefully : I am sure they will prove to be of keen interest to a great number of people ; indeed, some may even wish to keep a camera handy in their own cars - for use during the early stages of the implementation of this D.o.T programme ! It will be a learning curve for many. The next thing I would really like to see is more effort put into reducing speed limits in built up/populated areas : maybe next year ?
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Colin Wake, 12-Nov-2004, 07:49am
That may scupper the plans of the Essex police, the Deputy CC was on the radio last month saying the only way they can now catch speeding motorists is the extensive use of covert cameras.
Suffolk also has a covert camera vehicle, BTDT!
A while ago there was a programme of checking the positioning (i.e. they were on bends behind trees) of some of the cameras round here and some action was taken (they trimmed the trees!) and 1 or 2 were actually moved after spending a few months with bags over them.
I do seem to remember reading recently that the positioning rules were being changed and would allow the cameras to be within 5 or 10 miles of the accident 'black spot'.
Big question is will the guidlelines be retrospective?
Where did you find the document??
Colin-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 13-Nov-2004, 10:25am
The guidelines will not be applied retrospectively however, all existing sites will need to be brought into the programme of review and improvement ; I suspect we should see a number of camera sites either being reconfigured or otherwise gradually disappearing from our roads. I believe the programme guidelines should be posted on the DoT 's website, probably under news updates.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Raymond Johncock, 13-Nov-2004, 02:42pm
If you drive at the correct speeds it does not matter what is stuck on a pole next to the road .
Only speeders need to worry.
When digital camaras are used a lot of people will come unstuck especially through roadworks they are now being used in my area . People who speed up between camaras will be in for a shock.
RAY J-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 13-Nov-2004, 03:50pm
In the US any driving offenses committed within a roadworks area carried double the ususal penalties... just thought I'd mention that... I thought it was a good idea.
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 25-Nov-2004, 10:24pm
One current item of news on this point via. the BBC, which may be of interest to some, is as follows :-
"......... 'Surprising comments'
"What we have to focus on is where speed is actually causing accidents."
But Dick Bowen, project manager of the Avon and Somerset and Gloucestershire SCP, which runs the units, said complaints about the methods employed by the units had already been dealt with.
He said: "It is true that some of the units had been seen parked on double yellow lines or in bus lanes while officers tried to catch speeding motorists, but we have already withdrawn from using that approach.
"We made the changes in liaison with the police, so the comments were a little surprising."
A spokesperson for Avon and Somerset police, said: "We do not want to fall out with the Partnership over this issue, we just wanted to create a public debate." ...... "
Perhaps we may next see an end to police vehicles being parked up illegally within bus stops/on double yellow lines, while occupants collect their shopping and their take away meals etc. etc. !!
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 01-Nov-2004, 09:08am
"I'm amazed that someone actually belives the statics published by the govt."
... you can't be a sceptic all your life, but
anyhow, you should have noticed that we have already said that the government are trying to prove that their
speed cameras are cutting accidents so we expect the figure quote to have been 'massaged' to their lowest
levels... which actually makes them more disturbing
... I'll say it again, accidents will always happen, but the slower you are travelling at the time the more chance you have of walking away. You never know when the accident is going to happen so sticking to the speed limits will improve your chances (and the poor bu**ers you collect on the way).
And the other side of your point... when IS it appropriate to speed? who is the judge of that and who pays the consequences if you are wrong?
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Van Hamlin, 20-Oct-2004, 09:25pm
Nigel
I didn't say that moving the speedo needle makes it accurate at all speeds. It doesn't need to be. It only needs to be spot on, or slightly over, at the speeds which are legal limits. So it's important that it says at least 70 at 70 but it doesn't really matter if it reads slightly under 80 at 80 since when you're doing over 70 you are committing an offence anyway. I've had some classic cars where the speedo goes well over 100 and I'm certainly not bothered about its accuracy up there!
The reason I have adjusted replacement speedos on 2 cars this way is because I have had them to bits so I could put the odometer parts from the deceased speedo into the replacement one in order to keep the correct odometer reading.
I'm also quite capable of maintaining a constant speed without looking at my speedo much at all. You have criticised a suggestion which has worked for me and doesn't cost anything, without suggesting an alternative other than one which is plainly a joke.
Regards
Van
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 21-Oct-2004, 08:21am
You obvioulsy didn't read my earlier post Van... may I refer you to it now...
http://www.tssc.org.uk/messageboard.asp?board=lega... - first paragraph.
Another way would be to use GPS system... but that isn't cheap. -
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Doug Paterson, 21-Oct-2004, 04:21pm
You should re-read Nigel's post. He doesn't speak with forked tongue.
A measured mile is a far easier way to check. Your 50 mile drive plan doesn't cut it. Even up here in Scotland it is rare to be able to drive 50 miles at a constant speed.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Colin Wake, 22-Oct-2004, 10:31am
You can spot the measured miles the police use about. They tend to be on straight roads not far from the traffic police HQ's. Look for reflective blue posts on the side of the road or similar.
It is hard to watch the posts, operate the stopwatch and check the speedo all at once, But if that is what it takes to cause a big accident, then that's what you need to do!!!
There is 1 on the A12 between Marks Tey and Colchester, and 1 on the A12 Nr Martlesham Heath.
Colin-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Matthew Holland, 22-Oct-2004, 11:40am
Does nobody have a GPS receiver? I would assume that the reading from that would be as accurate as you'd ever need to be.
On testing my herald's speedo this way I found that it was always pessimistic. At an indicated 30, I'd actually be doing about 25, at an indicated 50 I'd probably be doing about 46 and at 70 probably about 60.
There have been many occasions where I have "run out" of speedo on some long downhill sprints of the M25 so that means my standard herald 1200 with overdrive can do 90mph.......
I don't think so!
: )-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Chris Mills, 22-Oct-2004, 12:17pm
Hi Matthew
I tested my 1976- 1500 Spit using a GPS unit with and without James's speed calculator,
The car's speedo is miles out, but I'm am using 5.5J wheels and 185/780 tyres and have'nt had the speedo re-calibrated.
Comparing the actual speed as given by the GPS, against the " Minty Speed calculator " the calculation is pretty much spot on.
http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/gearspeed/
All I've done is put a mark at 30mph 50mph & 70mph and work to those, when on a decent run, the GPS unit is transferred to the Spit.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : James Carruthers, 22-Oct-2004, 12:30pm
I keep meaning to put on the calculator that the figures are +/- 3% - which is the tolerance used by the tyre manufacturers...
James
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 22-Oct-2004, 02:10pm
The ones on the motorway are simple white posts with a white disc at the top. At the quater mile mark there will be another one with a quarter of the disc in red, then half in red, 3/4 red and finally at the mile mark it is a red disc.
There's one on the northbound carriageway of the M40 just before junction 10 (I think)-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Mike Crewes, 22-Oct-2004, 06:31pm
Guys
You seem to have a lot of fun with this one.
When did anyone trust what was written in the papers? As Van has said, the law is the law. 30 mph speed limit means a MAXIMUM speed of 30 mph and not an mph more. However, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) recognise the two differing standards of speed recording in cars and RECOMMEND that forces use their discretion and set the threshold on cameras and other speed enforcement devices at 10% over the speed limit plus 1 mph. It is possible to be prosecuted below this, because this is not law, but it is unlikely, so I have some scepticism about the article and letter (I here similar stories at virtually every party I go to, very exciting!!).
ALL Police speed measuring devices are absolutely accurate, it is the officers discretion that makes the allowance. Police vehicles do not get prosecuted for speed offences, because they are exempt! Fancy it keeping to the speed limit whilst making its way to you getting your head kicked in?
Checking your speedo accuracy is quite easy. The motorway marker posts are 100 metres apart and the phones are 1 mile apart this is reasonably accurate, certainly accurate enough over a few miles.
As an aside my PI over reads by about 10%.
Speedo inaccuracy is a straight line on a graph. If it is 10% out at any three points it will be 10% out everywhere, but the accuracy line can cross the actual speed line so that at lower speeds the speedo may be, say under, but at higher speeds it may be over, or vice versa.
I think that just about covers all the points, but if it doesn't I'm sure the next post will say so.
Sorry I took so long to write this one, but I have access problems at the moment.
Happy speed monitoring.
Mike
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : John Davies, 22-Oct-2004, 08:47pm
MIke,
When you have time, .I woul be gratful for your comments about this:
My modern car (Renault Laguna) has "cruise control" - very useful, IMHO, on M'ways, especially when the speed limit is reduced. But it's not very accurate. When I set it to 70mph, the speedo can read anything from less than 70 to 77, depending on the slope of the road, up or down. Which can I rely on? Renault say that this is "normal".
Thanks!
John-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 23-Oct-2004, 00:14am
Cruise controls are not speed limiters.............sounds bizarre but is true,for example,driving a 44 tonne artic on the flat bit of the M6 at Lancaster, John ,and the speed limiter will not let you exceed 56 mph(ish),however coming down Shap fell without braking and the speeds can get hairy(not that i would condone such an action........)the
same is true of cars to a lesser degree ,on downhill sections they will speed up due to the nature of
gravity,however,on the flat and uphill then it SHOULD be safe to assume that the cruise control is
accurate. An inaccurate electronic speedo used to be a perk of owning Lancias,i've had a few of
them,but you would have thought that on a car as modern as a Laguna this problem would have been
sorted,maybe not,..............maybe it is a French ploy to make us all lose our license's so that
thier wagons can take all our business,and we have to eat croissants for breakfast and ban fry
ups,smoke awful fags (except Liverpool),reek of garlic and and and .........enough ranting,for the
moment.Is the hearse up and running yet John?
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : John Davies, 23-Oct-2004, 08:59am
Hearse? How dare you Sir! That is a high-tec racing machine to which you refer, though I have to admit it's pace has been a bit funereal to date. Perhaps I should not have replaced the Triumph Wreath livery, and added plumes.
Going back to the previous subject, maybe I have been spoilt. My previous experience of cruise control was on a 1980s Japanese car, that smoothly used throttle control to stay much closer to the set speed than the Frogmobile does. And with much simpler controls too.
JOhn-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : James Carruthers, 23-Oct-2004, 12:27pm
Did someone say Hearse?!
Speeding limits.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 23-Oct-2004, 03:03pm
I must confess John ..it does look the dogs.........is it reliable yet?....PS James.comp works fine just needs an air filter,contact you early next week.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : David Cornell, 26-Oct-2004, 10:07pm
Just the car for this task : My MK 1 Vitesse would almost certainly turn over, if I attempted to get around a roundabout I encountered today, at anything like the legal speed limit - derestricted sign about 25 metres before the roundabout (one of about a dozen rather bazaar speed limit signs I happened to notice during my travels today).
Just down the road from this roundabout, for example, there is a derestricted limit sign not a metre away from a set of traffic lights ! Meanwhile, a local dual carriageway has just been posted with an increased limit of 40mph against the earlier posted 30mph ; a former favourite of the mobile speed camera touts but which is now entirely void of such visitors - I could go on...
I know it would unfortunately, end a major revenue stream - and the issue of plenty of penalty points - but I wonder if we should lobby for a review of all traffic speed limits with a view to ensuring they all become a bit more sensible and realistic ?
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : John Davies, 26-Oct-2004, 11:14pm
David,
Good idea. 20mph where ever children could be in the road. See this from four years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/626150.stm . Where=everywhere.
Plus speed humps and traffic calming: See this: www.london.gov.uk/assembly/transport/ 2004/transpfeb05/transpfeb05item05b.rtf . Child casualties down by 23% in the last ten years, mostly by these methods.
How "realistic" do you want?
Nothing personal, David, but isn't it about time everyone stopped wittering on about how their individual freedoms to drive as fast as THEY think is safe, and park anywhere THEY think is convenient are being infringed. Admit it, this is a crowded island with too many cars for those shannigans. Anyone who wants to drive for pleasure, emigrate (Scotland would do) or take up motorsport on closed tracks.
Okay, I'll take my medicine now, Nurse.
JohnD;
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : David Cornell, 27-Oct-2004, 11:11am
Thanks for this John. I am glad I am not the only one who believes speed limit designations need to be readdressed.
30 is obviously far too fast in most built up areas, whilst 30 is clearly too slow on most good clear urban roads/carriageways : and as for derestricted limits on roundabouts and at traffic lights etc. - well...
Perhaps not so much a case of 'they' though, John - I would say 'we'; we need only take a drive on any of our roads to find that out - unless it is icey/foggy/crowded/etc. of course ; there would appear to be extremely few people, if any, who drive consistantly within a posted speed limit - police vehicles being no exeption. Some of us may be happy to pay the respective fines - but I have yet to discover one driver who sticks within current speed limits : I wouldn't say though, that any of those people where necessarily bad or dangerous drivers.
I would hence, support any campagn which set out to rationalise all speed limits to a realistic level, in order to both save lives and to promote sensiblity.
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 27-Oct-2004, 12:07pm
Interesting view points you two have... and quite refreshing too... I thought I was the only one
(so kept quite to avoid being flamed)
I am personally compeltely fed up of people complaining about speed cameras as money making devices etc etc... it's quite simple, don't speed, don't pay. I have no problems with cameras wherever they are...
I expect that the same people are the ones who complain when they get a speeding ticket after being stopped by a police car or a police man with a radar gun thingy with "why aren't you out catching REAL criminals" etc. etc.
This is a report on crimes in England and Wales for 2002... as you can see there are many more road deaths than murders, and cutting your speed will cut this figure... so where can we save more lives then... ? CUT YOUR SPEED
3,431 people were killed in road accidents
35,976 were seriously injured
263,198 were slightly injured
Total murders/manslaughters/infanticides: 1043 of which:
Total Firearm deaths: 97
Serious violent offences: 32,350
Less serious violent offences: 617,804
Rapes (female): 9,008
Rapes (male): 735
Robberies 121,375
Burglary in a dwelling: 426,872
Aggravated burglary in dwelling: 3,489
Aggravated vehicle taking: 11,792
Theft from a vehicle: 655,127
Theft from shop: 306,308
Fraud and forgery: 317,399
Arson: 60,472
Criminal damage to home: 268,988
Drug Trafficking: 19,583
Drug Possession: 100,944-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 27-Oct-2004, 12:30pm
My tuppence.........for what it's worth...........people who constantly moan and complain about speed cameras and speeding fines really get my goat.It is really quite simple,dont speed or if you "have to" don't bitch about getting caught.I wonder what the ratio is between actually speeding and getting caught,fairly low i would guess.The most vehement anti speed camera man i know soon changed his views when one of his grandkids was knocked over by a car doing 41 in a 30 zone.Not too badly injured thank God.
20 MPH in urban areas gets my vote,i have never ,nor do i ever want to knock anybody of any age over,i stick rigidly to 20 mph in 30 mph "child probability" areas, only for Mr Asshole "i've been driving twenty years and know it all" , "iv'e got my front and rear fogs on ,ABS and traction control so am now untouchable and above the law" to overtake at ridiculous speeds in ridiculous situations,whilst having to screech to a halt 100 metres later.
If we all took a more sedate approach to driving then everything would be calmer and civillised on the roads.I mean,what is the constant rush to get everywhere?
If you want to thrash the nuts off your car ,take it to the track and get it out of your system in a safe enviroment,not in populated areas.
Don't even need to mention the Nova "BOYS".........
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : David Cornell, 27-Oct-2004, 07:56pm
I think there would be extremely few people indeed, who would be prepared to accept any of our roads becoming equivalent to RAC rally stages ; other than those who actually post some of the speed limit signs in the first place, perhaps ! (see my earlier message). More to the point, I would suggest, is that taken to an ultimate conclusion - with this exponential increase in 'speed camera policing' anyone found exceeding any speed limit, even momentarily, would soon lose their driving licences. Can any of us say, hand on heart, that we never exceed a limit at any time - honestly now... and no hail Mary's please !
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Graham Reeks, 27-Oct-2004, 01:28pm
Oh dear, don't get me started on Police statistics ... or, more accurately their interpretation. As a research professional I could bang on about it for hours ... but I won't, it's ok!
Blaming speed (either too fast or too slow) for accidents is a fairly simplistic argument ... which consequently makes it an easy and good one, too. However, it's also worth considering many other types of 'human error' - we all can think of these, and see people making driving mistakes every day even when not breaking limits.
Then, there are all the other factors, such as the weather. I had recourse to stop several times on the way to work when I lived up north due to check on the health of drivers caught out by the weather. On at least a couple of occasions the only thing that stopped me from sliding off in sheltered areas when the temp. had dipped below the predictions and gritters hadn't been out, was the sight of other cars/vans on their sides, roofs, balancing on hedges, etc. Frightening stuff!
And we've all probably experienced the seriously dangerous slow driver, and the impeccable careful driver. And the idiots on the M4 who are either right up your bumper or coming past on the inside in their poncey Cayennes! I saw a guy come past me on the M3 the other day who was smoking whilst reading the Racing Post at about 90mph in a Mk2 Fiesta!
So, it's not 'just' about speed, but care and attention as well.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 27-Oct-2004, 02:08pm
True... but this threads about speed and although driving error are made (or just plain dangerous driving). The slower a car is travelling while making these mistakes will have a huge effect on the potential results.
My wonder is, after looking at 3,431 deaths on the road, if the cars involved were travelling just 5 mph slower how do you think it would affect that number? - only by reducing it, I think
Like Adrian says, "Get it out of your system on the track!"... like I do
Youre all most welcome to join in
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : James Carruthers, 27-Oct-2004, 01:46pm
3,431 people were killed in road accidents
35,976 were seriously injured
263,198 were slightly injured
As to what Graham says... how many of these were above the speed limit? There are too many factors for each individual case...
As we're talking about <30mph speed limits its safe to say we're concerned with pedestrians...
If you drive in to someone at 10mph and break their leg - is that ok because you were below the speed limit? It's obviously not...
I would never condone speeding in any way - but I often think its unfair to attribute all of these deaths to the drivers... how many were caused by the pedestrians themselves for instance? It's always assumed its the drivers fault because the driver collides with the pedestrian - what about a kid that runs straight out in to the road without looking? Nobody would be able to stop for something like that... who is at fault? The person in the car never gets hurt... except perhaps mentally...
We can't pedestrianise everywhere - and we can't make cars safe to walk in to... do we make the speed limit 5mph? Perhaps with a man waving a red flag walking in front...
James
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 27-Oct-2004, 02:00pm
"I would never condone speeding in any way - but I often think its unfair to attribute all of these deaths to the drivers... how many were caused by the pedestrians themselves for instance?".....I'm sure Mike will correct me if i'm wrong,but i was under the impression that all pedestrians had right of way at all times.If people showed a bit more anticipation,observation and consideration then accidents,deaths would decrease.As for poncey Porker Cayennes Mr Reeksy,could not agree more,what a thoroughly useless vehicle they are!..........-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : James Carruthers, 27-Oct-2004, 02:11pm
They sure do have right of way... I've always thought that as a bit perverted - especially when I didnt drive... It's easier for a pedestrian to stop walking than for a car to stop... Im just saying the pedestrians need to take just as much care, if not more, as the drivers do - it's them that get killed.
Perhaps pedestrians need to pass a test to be able to walk on the pavement?... that would be plain silly - but if you're going to cross the road on a blind bend you're asking for trouble... how many people cross in the middle of a road, when there is a suitable pedestrian crossing only a few yards down the road?
Don't get me wrong though - it freaks me out that my little brother has to walk to school everyday...
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 27-Oct-2004, 02:15pm
I don't have the figure to hand but I seem to remember that in 33% of RTAs excess speed is a contributing factor...
http://www.transport2000.org.uk/activistbriefings/...
yep... just checked it is 33%
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : James Carruthers, 27-Oct-2004, 02:40pm
So we can cut down 33% by driving slower...
It's scary the other 67% are other things - we need to do more about those then... proper driving tests perhaps... a mild retake of a driving test every 5 years perhaps?
Hey... I must be in those statistics... I'm a statistic...! How exciting...
Excess speed and stupidity is what caused the accident I was in - the guy behind was just going too quick in severe rain... but that was also down to inexperience. He was about 19 and from Vietnam... hardly spoke a word of English... I wonder if he actually passed a test over here - or was using an international one etc...
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Graham Reeks, 27-Oct-2004, 04:36pm
Lies, damned lies, and Statistics? 89.67% of statistics are lies remember!
Also, 33% is a nice round number isn't it.
Undoubtedly there is a case, but there's even the issue of how you define speed - as going around a corner below the speed limit could be too fast, etc, etc, and how the report is filed. Unintentional lies!
Yes, I am being facetious, but that's fun isn't it? Just like speeding?
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : David Powell, 27-Oct-2004, 06:13pm
Speed is just a scapegoat, you will not stop the die-hard speeder with cameras, fines, prison. You will not stop people speeding without black boxes and GPS, the propoganda has been absorbed by many thread replies, cameras for safety, my ass, 90% of cameras I see outside of 30-40limits are solely placed for revenue.
In this county we have some of the poorest drivers I've seen anywhere in Europe, in regards to perception and concentration, the majority of accidents are caused by poor training, lack of thought, lack of danger awareness, lack of concentration etc.
They miss all the important stuff in driver training - Speed can be attributed to most accidents but as a sole contributing factor its not many accidents that you can "solely" blame speed and usually these involve young lads who kill themselves on A-Roads late at night, born again bikers, these folks will be unaffected by rules as I know from when I was 18 (sometime ago) the rules certainly didn't apply to me on A-roads and this is a trait, until you ban teenagers from driving they will always cause accidents, its called testosterone, and lifes a pretty pull place when the level of that goes away huh? You start liking speed cameras and sympathising with the local safety camera partnership.
Who reads statics and believes them? You can manipulate a satistic to mean anything.
Ever driven an autobahn in Germany? Folks are alert, dive from the outside lane immediately after overtaking, noone hogs a lane, people are focused and the quality of driving is generally superb. Driving here is a pleasure, cause there is a respect between drivers, and drivers know the risks, they are alert and there is alot of courtisy/respect between drivers, the driver infront actually uses their mirror and makes room for quicker cars. It keeps folks on their toes which keeps you alert, I find in the UK most of my time behind is spent in an angry dazed fixation at the rear of the car infront.
I was cruising along a few trips back at 125mph flat out in the rental and felt safer than on a UK motorway at 80 cause the people around me where driving in a more defensive and alert fashion, cause they werent in a daze staring at the car infront watching the speedo not the road.
Everytime I come back to the UK after a Nurburgring trip and some Autobahning I am simply appauled and annoyed by, for example - middle lane hoggers, this lazyness causes me annoyance which makes me angry sometimes when the traffic could be flowing cleanly but never does (90% of motorway UK driving), which makes me aggressive, which increases my risk of making a bad decision. You see my point, if we were to actually re-educate the standards of driving in the UK and wake up folks who for example - who wouldn't realise a lorry was 1inch of their bumper for 3weeks alot of accidents could be saved from both sides and the effects of a simple thing like this could reduce the death toll on motorways hugely as the knock on effects of banning lane hogging would change the whole feel of the motorway.
If a driver is doing 70mph on a highway half asleep and causes an accident it generally isn't the speed that has caused it but the lack of thought or focus and concentration.
I have had a few near misses in the last few years, not a single one because of excessive speed but every one caused mainly at low speeds by folks not concentrating at junctions and pullling out, or the old who have forgotten you need actually need to stop at a junction.
I watch old folks routinely causing near accidents everyday in my town as they shouldn't be on the road, the "watch the accident in the mirror driver". These same folks drive my local A-roads at 35mph with a queue of angry working folks behind them who cannot spend an hour doing 30miles, they then overtake at dangerous points, get aggressive or simple stare at the car in front in a daze, this daze causes the most accidents imo.
When I have just been driving at my own speed on an A-Road I can remember each point of danger, each stone, bump, bit of mud, changes to the road side from last journey, changes in tarmac condition, note the growth of hedges and trees causing viability issues. When I have been following some daudler I can barely remember what happened in the last minute "oh im here".
The more you slow folks down the more they loose concentration (on A-roads) and the worse their driving gets. I get this, if I can clock on at 80 on a nice piece of safe A-Road my senses are hieghtened, my reactions taught and reactive and my mind focused on one thing the dangers ahead, and assessing the road constantly. Put me behind a 35mph queue of traffic my brain turns into a mush and my focuses turns to other thoughts, radio etc. This is when I feel I could easily be involved in an accident, as the level of concentration required to drive "out" of towns at slow speeds is barely enough to activate my brain (it wakes up at 60 or so), and as such this is dangerous, imo more dangerous than doing what I feel is a safe speed with open road.
Speeding gets far too bad a press, its the lack of good training in all the attributing factors to accidents/driving that lead to poor standards of perception of danger that cause the majority, the human is not infalible from driving a car for example - when you have had to sleep the night before, you have just had a tramatic experience, times when your mind is all over the place I see people in this state as dangerous, I see some bloke in a TVR going the other way at 80, I don't worry, when I cruise up behind a "purple rinse" in a metro I give it a WIDE birth....
Maybe in the future the nannism of this country will get to such a stage we all be driven somewhere by a computer cause the computer wont make mistakes, are we actually fit to cross the road on our own anymore, are we able to think for ourselves...
I am very much of the leave me alone to judge my own speed on open road group, you can keep your camera's and every increasing decreasing of limits.
I don't comment on 30limits because I don't speed in them, ever as there is constant danger to soft human flesh, I do however when the conditions are correct and road is user friendly drive at whatever speed I see fit according to what the next 250metres of vision or however long I can stop in - is telling me. It is here I have my greatest annoyance at being nannied.
Also how can you speed in a 30, everytime I go into town where there are people - I dont get out of 1st gear so what different do they make in town centres with 20limits?
Roads are too busy, thats also a major cause of accidents, you don't get told in some new static that accident rates have tripled in the last ten years or something that also road traffic has tripled and roads are completely overloaded and - risk of accidents squares - to increase in cars.
People are going to die everyday walking out of their doors, if you want no deaths on the roads ban the cars, cause people will ALWAYS speed and ALWAYS make mistakes.
In the mean time it makes the government stacks.
Rant over
I am such a bad man.
Regards,-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 27-Oct-2004, 07:21pm
Wow.......i think that is the longest post ever,Craig?
Worst drivers in Europe? Ever driven round Paris,Milan,Athens,Istanbul?
We have laws in this country ,wether about theft,speeding,poaching etc etc,they are the laws of this country and we cannot chose which to ignore and which to adhere to.If that was the case we would have lawlessness,after working for quite some time in Angola and Rhodesia then that is not an option i would like to see in this country.
Wether we like speed limits or not they are a fact of life and a law of the country that we have to live with or not,if not then we can chose another country.I agree with a lot of your comments and reasoning behind them.Just one point about the "purple Rinse brigade" ,we all get there eventually.........some of us sooner than others,it
seems a tad harsh to ban them all,perhaps a re-test at
50 and every 5 years thereafter?
If they got rid of cameras we'll all end up paying &163;1000 road tax.........
This dabate could go on a while.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : David Powell, 27-Oct-2004, 07:51pm
Yes I drove round a Paris and have been driven round Rome, fun isn't it?
In our sense (or what were are conditioned to think) I guess they drive badly, but they drive with vigour and its surivival of the fitest there, kind of like the last 20,000,000 years. This is a notion more inline with my likes. Aggressive and pushy yes, but half asleep, quite the opposite, rush hour in Rome must be the most highly charged daily event in Europe.
You notice how you have to raise your game and concentration there, keeps you on your toes, once you have woken up from the british sensibilities of driving you'll fit right in on the Paris streets.
You can always spot a typical holiday maker Brit abroad in a Italy or France etc cause they are the ones with 5000cars behind at a junction all honking cause they wait inline and wont push in, we are a nation of queuers and liners, continential city drivers just get on with driving and forget about the "after you" bit.
We all do get a Purple Rinse at somepoint sure, but we don't all decay at the same rate, same goes for opinion, ability or quality of driving ability etc, we are all different, so blanket rules will always annoy someone, and blanket rules will always be designed for the lowest ability level, which is also frustrating on the road or being involved with any blanket activities.
Regards,-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 27-Oct-2004, 10:50pm
You must be THE best driver in the world....or the one most with delusions of granduer,is your last name really Schumacer?
If i have 5000 cars behind me and save one childs health, then bleeding hard luck,sit in the queue..read John's and Phils reply,I know John works in that field,it must be very distressing to see a kid knocked over by some sexually overcharged bull,driving a car or a bull who thinks he can drive,who offers some pathetic excuse at remorse...but hey,it's a free country ,drive how the hell you like,as fast as you like,as idiotic as you like................don't knock my child over though,whilst your expressing your masculinity or stupidity.
PS......i'm only 38 not purple rinse yet....if i had any to rinse......
Survival of the fittest...............i thought i was neanderthal............apparently not in comparision to yourself.
If you have to raise your game to drive abroad then you should not be driving here,as it obviously beneath your considerable driving skills and intellect.Get yourself a WRA seat,i bet Ford would die for your "don't give a shite" attitude.
Alternatively you could join the human race and consider others,what an appalling thought.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 28-Oct-2004, 09:35am
Hehe, Lol, chuckle, snigger....
I agree with everything your saying there Adrian... the world would be a better place if we all put someone else's needs first.
PS ... me = 37 and also no hair but you already know
that
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 28-Oct-2004, 10:15am
That last post was harsh and unfair to you Joe,please except my apologies.Some things make feelings run high for reasons best kept to ourselves sometimes.My last post on this subject.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : David Powell, 28-Oct-2004, 06:18pm
I wouldn't worry, I'm not easily offended
The very differing opinions that make for debate, are the same ones that give us such diversity, but also give us all differing outlooks.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Mike Crewes, 28-Oct-2004, 07:55pm
Well here's a lively debate! As a Forensic Collision Investigator I feel that I am well qualified to express my opinion too.
It's interesting and quite reassuring that the vast majority of you agree with slowing down, BECAUSE THAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
However, I also agree with Joe. Drivers definitely need more education, starting with you Joe, eh? Professionally trained drivers like Police, Ambulance, Rally, F1, etc. don't get it right everytime, so what makes you think you can? Oh and by the way, if unlimited speed limits on autobahns are so great, why are they gradually being brought into line with the rest of Europe?
The point is, it we all slow down it will give everyone MORE TIME TO REACT and maybe avoid the collision. Speeding is great ... until someone you love is killed in a collision on a road, it's not so much fun then.
If you think I'm being hard, then come to work with me, help me scrape people off the road and from the inside of their cars, they thought they were the best too.
I've been doing this for over 15 years and it looks like there's still plenty of work out there. However, if it all dried up tomorrow, I would be the happiest man alive.
Simple - slow down and give yourself more time to react. Its just plain ol' physics.
Oh and Joe, do some circuit days mate, it'll do you good and the rest of us a favour.
Yours, getting off his soapbox.
Mike-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Philip Brammer, 28-Oct-2004, 09:44pm
One final point from me....Bull bars. Why are they legal as an aftermarket fit? The industry spends millions to make a car more impact friendly(?) to a pedestrian to meet the latest government specs, then the same government allow Bull bars. These things are a fashion accessory and lethal in a collision. Being hit by a 2 ton 5 bar gate at 30mph does not leave much for the paramedic to do. Thoughts anyone?-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 29-Oct-2004, 00:04am
No,yes ,agree........no more posts on this subject from me.I'm in danger of agreeing with Mike.......
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : James Carruthers, 29-Oct-2004, 00:25am
Whatever next Adrian!
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Colin Wake, 29-Oct-2004, 08:02am
Mike
reading this I remembered that quite a few years ago I came down to your local area meet for an excellent presentation that you put on into your job and what it entailed.
It would be good if something similar could be done again, especially in light of the very long and interesting postings that my original question has generated!!!
And as there is a parallel discussion going on over on the 'International' message board of ideas for next year, it this an oportunity to combine the 2.
I seem to remember that the Staffordshire police HQ is about 2 miles from the showground. Is there an opportunity here for us to invite them to provide something similar???
Colin -
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : David Powell, 29-Oct-2004, 09:44pm
They are cutting down Autobahn speeds from pressure by the nanny state that is Brussells, if you used one you'd see its not a bad thing when used correctly. Same sentiments that are a constant drain on ours souls.
I don't believe I can do anything, I have commented in depth on varing driving as per conditions. I use most rules of thumb taught to Police drivers, Ambulance drivers as a matter of course, defense and awareness, each and everytime I drive on the road, whether at 10-60mph, I was told many years ago after passing my test in 10hours I would be a perfect candidate for doing an advanced test.
I do circuit days 7days last year 832miles in total at the mighty Nordschlieffe, what bearing this has on daily driving I can make no association, driving a 120HP car lapping the Ring in 10minutes bears absolutely no relation with a drive to work. In one instance I am driving leaving no margin for error and driving on the limit of the machinery and my personal level, and in the other I am driving within the limits of what is sensible for a given road situation and what I can see ahead, usually resulting in lawful speed unless I can see far enough ahead to drive sensibly quickly, like the majority of road users in rural areas.
Regards,
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 27-Oct-2004, 10:54pm
Joe...
I hope you don't live near me... I wouldn't like to be outdoors when you are 'driving' in my area. You seem to come across as exactly the person I would like to see taken off the roads for the safety of the other road users.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 27-Oct-2004, 11:02pm
Do we agree AGAIN Nig,surely not?
I have started this worrying trend of agreeing with people,it simply must stop,except in Joe's case,i'm sure Joe is a great bloke,i just disagree with him on this issue.
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 28-Oct-2004, 09:30am
He's a truimph enthusiast, so that's a big point in his favour... and I'm also sure he's a fine fellow and this would make a fine pub argument..
But I have very strong feelings about road safety as you will see from my now revised post to Joe's other rather long winded comment. The first was was not polite
All drivers have limits to their talents and as a racing driver I reach mine far more often than most (especially last year). The problem
is that you don't know when you've
exceded that limit until you actually
have your accident and of course by
then it's too late.
My first accident last year was due to being distracted by another car which was behind me, this lead to me missiong my breaking point and entering the corner too quick. The second was due to being so elated at surviving the previous corner intact (Paddock Hill @ Brands) that I forgot about braking for Druids. Again, too fast into the corner.
Thankfully the circuit is surrounded by lovely soft (ish) tyre barriers so no injury resulted
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 27-Oct-2004, 10:49pm
I didn't bother reading that as you plainly didn't bother reading what this thread is obviously about.-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 27-Oct-2004, 11:02pm
Okay... so I just went back and read it...
But Joe you are wrong! Speed is not a scape-goat speed is a contributing factor and the damage done during an accident to both vehicles and more imporantly people is directly proportionate to the speed the vehicle was travelling at.
Cameras are not money making schemes, and have been proven to reduce accident levels where they are posted. People like you make this argument once they are caught by them by way of trying to justify their speeding to themselves and their friends. I expect these same people would make the argument that a police man in a van with a radar gun should be out catching criminals instead of 'persecuting' innocent motorists. And then would go on to make the argument that a police car that stops them while speeding must have been going faster than they were and so has not right to stop them!!!
These arguments are all (obviously) rediculous, and I'm pretty comforted to know that the police are removing dangerous drivers from the roads.
You say you are the best judge of what speed you should be doing. I find that very interesting as you seem to instictively know that your car must have no major defects, the road conditions around every corner and junction you come across. EXACTLY what each end every driver on the road is planning to do as well as each and every pedestrain. You my friend must be omnipotent and I must worship at the alter the Joe driving standards.
"90% of cameras are posted for revenue" .. your ass... can you back this up with proof please... well you are right about your ass
later you say statistics are can be made to mean anything... otherwise I will assume you are talking out of that part of your anatomy.
Read the figures, statistic can be made to mean anything. Well, lets think about that, this is a government report. The government are keen to prove their policies are reducing these numbers, so lets assume then that they are manipulated to show the lowest numbers possible. That makes them even worse as we can therefore assume that the figures should be higher. And I'm sure Graham will tell us all that statistics always tell us the facts, it how they are dressed that often misleads people as they can be confused to think they are reading a slighty different topic. But 3,400 dead people are surely 3400 dead people and all in RTAs - whats your problem with that? do you think they just made it up?
125mph on an autobahn is fine over there, but here it simply doesn't work. And that sense of feeling safe is a false sense - it's called complacency! When you have your accident, be it caused by your own fault, another road user or mechanicle failure, I full expect your life will end! That's fine for you, but not your family or more importantly to poor sod you run into who may or may not have made the mistake that is killed too.
I do agree with your assessment of british driving standards though. Lane hoggers, lazyness and a selfish attitude to drving (me me me). After a trip abroad I am always pretty disheartened by the lack of standards over here. But that is a result of it being an overcrowded island. If you travel into any of the big european cities (except Venice) the standards drop
siognificantly. Strange thing is though, where I
drive (M25 - M3) I have noticed that if everyone
sticks to the posted speed limits (which they
sometimes do) then the traffic flows better and
there are less holdups. The thing that annoys me
the most on conjested motorways is late lane
switching, say at a junction, this I have found is
the greatest cause of holdups on the M25 especialy
in the roadworks near Heathrow.
The thread isn't about the guy dooing 70mph falling asleep as that is a point about fitness to drive. But taking that example if the same fella fell asleep at 30mph do you think the resultant accident would be the same? I think not.
Joe if you want to drive fast and aggressive (which your description says you do) then do it only on the track! I also have had many near misses in that past few years two of which were directly attributed to excess speed and dickhead drivers!
(example - three lanes, middlelane hogger i pass on the offside lane but want to come off at the next junction, speed limit is 50mph hogger doing 40 me doing 50 as there is a speed camera 200yds further along so I always check my speed at that point. Quick check in the rear view mirror shows a car about 100 yds behing me who is in the offside lane. I move into the slip road and low and behold the car that was 100 yds behind is already there! I only saw him at the last moment as I checked my blind spot! (Subaru) So although he was breaking more laws than just the speed limit. I he wasn't doing an estimates 80+ mph this one would have never happened. He then decided to prove to me he was a twat by overtaking me on the slip road and brake testing me to show his displeasure.)
BTW - does everyone know that if something like this happens to you on the road you can report it to the police if you take the registration number and car make. If they recieve corroborating evidence they can caution the driver or even prosecute them if you have independant witnesses.
Old folks are a different argument and as Adrain says, we'll all be one one day... except maybe the speed freaks who may just make it into middle age. The trick here is to know when to admit you are no longer fit to drive... and that's not a easy decision to make.
I disagree with your slow people down and they will loose concentration argument... it is after all a load of rubbish. I used to get pissed off at people doing 40 in a 60 zone and it wound me up. BUt one day I though that I'd rather they did that than were speeding as at least they were safer that way. So I no longer get wound up by them. To be honest, now that I drive a GT6 everday (bliss) I welcome the opportunity the spend an extra five minutes in it
As for nannyism, if people continue to get aggressive behind the wheel like you describe yourself then the nanny state will surely be upon us soon. If you calm down and drive sensibly then it wont need to happen - it's your choice. Unfortunately though you are making this choice for all of us too.
The roads are too busy, correct and conjestion is a cause of accidents. But they are not the major cause (you seem to spouting from statistics again - which of course can be made to say anything).
People are going to die everyday and the car is a part of our culture, they wont be banned but the driver must be sensible with them. The Err is human and mistakes will be made, but the more that those people adhere to the posted speed limits, then the less the consequences will be.
Also - read the linked messages and maybe learn something...
I'd better stop now as I haven't sworn yet...
I don't see this post as a Rant, so I won't claim it to be over... but somehow I don't think your actually is either
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Raymond Johncock, 27-Oct-2004, 01:47pm
When you read satistic like nig has posted you can understand why you never see a copper about .
Can you imagine the paper work that lot generates .
What has changed society so much to generate such massive numbers of crimes . At this rate can you imagine what those satistics will look like in 2020.
This country needs a massive shake up in justice
when someone breaks into your home and gets injured and your sued beggers belief. Minimum 5 years for a mugger not 100 hrs digging some poor sod garden. When you hear some of the sentences
handed out today its no wonder crime is so high .
Villans must piss there selfs with laughter.
This goverment should issue villans with a licence to steal ect because theres no deterant even when some get arrested . Is issuing a low life scumbag who would mug your granny a caution going to stop him or he i think not.
RAY J
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Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : Philip Brammer, 27-Oct-2004, 08:49pm
Its not only speeding, its dangerous driving, alcohol, drugs (including the testosterone that comes with testicles) TWOCing etc. The reality hits when you work with children with head injuries and their families. The child has a minimal chance of a meaningful life, the driver does his time and goes home. I drive at the speed limit only if its safe to do so, at other times I'm a traffic calming measure. If you are behind me tough, go spend a day in your local A&E or undertakers.
The race track is the place for adrenaline, not a public road. Rant done! Its a bit close to home thats all.......-
Speeding limits. Limits deaths.
Posted By : John Davies, 27-Oct-2004, 09:05pm
Hear, hear, Phil.
And for similar reasons.
John
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Posted By : John Davies, 23-Oct-2004, 05:58pm
Thank you, James! Another one for my collection.
Next time, please get the family limousines and the cars with the flower tributes in the pic.
John-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Adrian Lee, 23-Oct-2004, 06:57pm
Is there not a man meant to be walking in front too?...............
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Colin Wake, 23-Oct-2004, 03:41pm
Mike
So what you are saying is that I can legally still have my speedo that may read 10% under, without my knowledge as I do not check it's accuracy every journey, but I can still be prosecuted for speeding if my speedo says 30mph in a 30mph limit, when I am in fact unknowlingly doing 33mph because of the unknown inaccuracy.
Basically we 'older' car owners now have to conform to the regulations relating to newer vehicles due to the way the speeding legislation is enacted. Correct??
Colin
p.s. surely ALL Police speed measuring devices are absolutely accurate, BUT, only at the point in time at which the calibration is checked as everything without exception is affected by conditions around it. Air pressure, humidity, temperature, electrical fields, this is basic o-level physics.-
Speeding limits.
Posted By : Mike Crewes, 24-Oct-2004, 02:46pm
Colin
On the face of it, yes, but I still feel it's unlikely.
You are absolutely correct about calibration, but the drift off the calibration is so small as to be insignificant. The calibration logs will show the same figures for every weekly calibration for years no matter what the conditions are.
Regards
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Speeding limits.
Posted By : Colin Wake, 25-Oct-2004, 01:39pm
Mike
I'll give you a ring next time I'm caught speeding at 30mph then!!
I'll tell them you told me it was OK!!!
Cheers
Colin
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Posted By : David Cornell, 23-Oct-2004, 03:57pm
Police vehicle drivers do in fact get prosecuted - when there is no legitimate excuse for their speeding ; 12 such cases in North Wales alone last year (under Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom) - several other cases also in the press lately too. Perhaps we should all be keeping an eye out for speeding police vehicles rather than being so distressed about the accuracy of our speedos !
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Posted By : Philip Brammer, 23-Oct-2004, 09:07am
The speedo's I remember worked by using two magnetic discs. One was turned by the cable and the other had the needle on it and tried to turn in sympathy but was progressivly stopped by a return spring. It was surprisingly reliable! Does the Spit work on the same idea anyone know?
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Posted By : Tim Everitt, 20-Oct-2004, 03:50pm
I really think we need some input from Mike Crewes on this one. All I can say is that I cannot understand how I could be prosecuted for a speeding
offence if : a) my speedometer was reading less than the speed limit; and b) my speedometer reading was within the tolerance allowed by law.