Section : Cooling

13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

Posted By : Esther Carter, 19-Jul-2006, 07:32pm

• 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

  Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 19-Jul-2006, 07:52pm

  Brand new smaller rad?
  I have just uprated the Herald 1200 to a full width three row rad - in this weather it needs all the help it can get! How do you know it's overheating other than by the gauge? Any evidence of boiling or poor running? If they go into the red it's serious, but many of them stay comfortably at the upper third of the scale without going over the limit.
  Check your thermostat is correct; I've also found that some currently available temperature senders are absolute rubbish and read wayyyy too high. Consider an electric fan if the engine fan isn't enough, but I'd make sure there is a genuine problem first.
  Colin

  • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

    Posted By : Esther Carter, 19-Jul-2006, 08:07pm

    Hi Colin, Thanks for your prompt reply. The car does go into the red often, I had fitted an 88 degree thermostat but understand there is a 77 degree available for summer use. The way it was portrayed by sports car supplies was the smaller rad was standard fit to the 13/60, smaller but 3 vanes for cooling ??? I still have my full width rad but without refurbing not sure if this is all/part of the problem.
    
    Having read archive, the fuel gauge on the car reads roughly half true, I had considered an electrical issue, in fact five minutes ago bid on a new temp transmitter on e bay !!!!! The car runs sweet as you like, with no oil/water usage........
    
    The plot thickens....
    
    Regards
    
    Geoff
    

    • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

      Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 19-Jul-2006, 08:44pm

      This is a quick photo ( as of 2 minutes ago) of my own full width rad with three rows, uprated at a local manufacturers. The thermostat is an 82 degree unit and there's no problem even in the current heatwave. I had fitted a repro sender to my Herald Coupe and it went into the red immediately but with no sign of overheating at the engine, so I bought a NOS unit and the gauge read properly once fitted.
      Colin

      
      
      13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

      • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

        Posted By : Steve Cureton, 19-Jul-2006, 11:08pm

        The gauge on my 13/60 reads quite high, approaching the red line in this heat wave, but it's never overheated and doesn't use water etc so don't get too worried about it. If an engine is genuinly overheating you can't mistake the overpowering heat under the bonnet, also you should be able to hold the top hose without risk of burning your ahnd. If this doesn't apply to your car then like you I suspect the sender unit is faulty. Obviously I wouldn't want to encourage you to risk wrecking your engine so do continue until you find why it's overheating or what is causing the artificial reading.

        • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

          Posted By : Esther Carter, 22-Jul-2006, 10:19am

          Dear Steve and Colin, Many Thanks for your prompt replies respectively.a friend of mine who has owned Triumphs suggested it could well be an indication issue only. I now intend to replace temp sender, voltage regulator box and another tip from him was to either isolate/flush heater matrix, to confirm blockage there ???? Will follow up for others to refer to.
          Regards
          Geoff Tomkinson.

          • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

            Posted By : Aaron Tucker, 24-Jul-2006, 04:13pm

            Hi there Geoff,
            
            I had similar problem with overheating, I did a cooling system flush changed the thermostat and all to know avail I was considering a full width rad, but the car had none of the symptoms that others have described. However when the car was in for some work recently, I asked the mechanic to have look. He told me that the power wire for the gauge was connect to the wrong side of the voltage regulator on the back of the Speedo...therefore the gauge was mis-reading 12volts rather than 10volts, wiring corrected overheating problem solved even in the 28 degree heat we had last week in Sunderland.
            hope this helps
            
            Aaron

• 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

  Posted By : Chris Taylor, 19-Jul-2006, 11:02pm

  I would always advocate the full width radiator. You can enhance the passage of air through it by fitting "side wings" extending the engine side valances to the front grill. (Spitfires have these I believe if you want to see the idea. Should be the full height of the rad. In the short term to see if it makes any difference, you could make some temp ones from really robust cardboard. The ones I fitted to my Herald (when running with no fan at all) were made of hardboard.
  If you want to check that a radiator is clear and flowing coolant properly, check the front surface of the radiator by hand and make sure there is an approximately even temperature all over. It will tend to be a bit cooler low down towards the exit pipe, but there should be an even temperature gradient if the outlet feels cooler and NO cold spots.
  Another check to see if the car IS actually overheating is to take the radiator cap off carefully when the gauge goes into the red and see if there is any significant build up of pressure and any signs (visual or gurgling/rumbling sounds) of boiling and steam.
  I am surprised that running with no thermostat has made little difference. Again, assuming that the engine IS actually overheating, this could still be due to a silted up block which normal DIY flushers have difficulty removing. Not so easy to see without taking out core plugds, but you could try taking out the drain tap to the right rear of the block and seeing if there is any build up of "crud" behind it.
  Also need to be sure (I think the 13/60 head is the same as the 1200 in this respect) that the peculiar oblong brass distribution pipe is in place within the head. It should be visible from the front end of the head when you take the water pump off.
  If cooling is barely adequate, a "wetting" agent (such as red line) may help to bring the temp down just enough. Also just worth checking that you have the right water pump pulley. I seem to recall that some big crank Spit or Dolomite engines had a larger diameter pulley to match the bigger crank pulley. If you have that with the small Herald pulley, your pump may not be rotating at the necessary speed.

  • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

    Posted By : Philip Brammer, 22-Jul-2006, 12:51pm

    My spit 1500 was bedeviled with overheating last year. I would go for a run, stop the engine and listen to the poor old block boiling away and filling the expansion bottle whilst the temp gauge stayed in the 'strewth' end of the dial. I changed the head gasket (giving the waterways in the block a good poke with a long screwdriver and a blast of compressed air whilst the head was off) renewed the thermostat etc. flushed everything through removing the radiator and pressure washing it out. The result? Bugger all difference! NiG identified the problem (good ol' NiG) as a knackered water pump and worn housing. This was allowing water to be pumped aroung the radiator, but not around the block. A new pump and housing later and all was cured. No more boiling after a run and even during a fast run yesterday the temp needle did not stray over 3/4. The suggestion behind all this waffle is that the pump could be worn! Best of luck.

    • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

      Posted By : Mark Powell, 22-Jul-2006, 08:29pm

      Hi, I've just been experiencing the same problem with my 13/60 estate; to cut a long story short I eventually fitted a spare replacement guage. One week on, no problems! I suspected the guage as the problem as the reading fluctuated when I touched the wires behind the unit. I have a 1500 fitted, with the three guage unit from a later Toledo/Dolomite?. This gives me a voltmeter as well as the fuel/temp in the same housing.

    • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

      Posted By : Andrew Rundell, 22-Jul-2006, 08:38pm

      Didn't see it mentioned earlier - you could try a simple test - boil up some water in an appropriate container, stick the sender in, ignition on and see what the temp gauge reads - then as it cools compare the readings - at least you'll get a practical sense of exactly what your whole set up is registering - a thermometer in the water would be a help too.
      Might be worth a go......
      Andy

      • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 24-Jul-2006, 05:34pm

        I would only ever use the 1200 full width radiator, as the smaller one that was used on the 13/60 was an economy measure by Triumph...they were cheaper, but are unfortunately only just up to the job.
        
        Secondly, has your heater radiator matrix be replaced or recored?
        
        My last one only lasted 37 years, disgraceful!
        
        These do get blocked with limescale and eventually flow really poorly, I recommend getting yours pressure tested/recored but make sure they get the input/output pipes in the exact right position, as it is critical to the accurate positioning/water tightness of the heater valve.
        
        There is a company in Great Bookham, Surrey that specialises in rebuilding these heater cores.
        
        While your core is out of the car you can bypass it with a piece of pipe and a couple of rubber hoses.
        
        I believe that the accuracy of the tempertaure gauge is also affected by the voltage stabiliser on the back of the speedo.
        
        If your fuel level gauge is giving inaccurate readings then that might be an indication that you need to replace the voltage stabilser to correct the problem.
        
        Oh yes, nearly forgot, you can make the heater blower more efficient by replacing the metal heater blower fan with a nylon one from an MGB (Smiths) heater, they are lighter and faster! (the fans, not the cars ;-> ).
        
        Best Regards
        
        Léon

        • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

          Posted By : Esther Carter, 07-Aug-2006, 12:46pm

          Many Thanks to everyone for taking the time to e mail in offering advice based on their own experiences.I seem to have completely rebuilt the cooling system on this car now. The fault was actually the voltage regulator on the back of the speedo as some suggested.The clue was when you turned on headlamps,indicators etc adding electrical load, the temperature gauge dropped !!!! As I own other marques of classic cars I have certainly never come across this scenario before, and have learnt from the experience. Just thought I would follow up for other peoples reference.
          
          Now do I refit the full width rad or stick with my brand new smaller rad which has coped well in the last couple of days of the recent heatwave...........
          
          Thanks again, great website !!!!!!
          
          Regards
          
          Geoff Tomkinson

          • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

            Posted By : Chris Taylor, 08-Aug-2006, 02:02am

            The old adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" if your new radiator is cooling the engine properly, leave it where it is.
            Although some consider the narrower radiator "marginal", it should be capable of cooling the engine. The only situation where a full width one is a decided improvement is when you are using an electric fan, or where the engine is under extra load and needs more cooling.
            If the system is coping with sustained running in recent temperatures with no overheating, it will manage the rest of the year!

            • 13/60 Cooling/Overheating problem

              Posted By : Dan Owen, 08-Aug-2006, 04:02pm

              One thing no-one seems to have mentioned is that it's a good idea to use "soft" water to try and avoid the rad of whatever type scaling up. You could waste money on distilled water but a rain barrel behind the garage keeps me supplied! Remember that common tap water is often quite "hard" with lime deposits that don't do your rad (or block/head come to that) much good at all.