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Crossed flags on the rear wings.

Posted By : Knut Braathen, 14-Aug-2006, 07:07pm

Hi.

Can anyone tell me what these crossed flags stand for. The flags are not the same on the other side of the car. Are they retrofitted? Do they have a meaning?
Please give me some history.

Crossed flags on the rear wings.

Followups :

Crossed flags on the rear wings.

Posted By : Danial Phoenix, 14-Aug-2006, 07:31pm

the herald rear wing badge was replaced with crossed flags on later coups which also fetured on convertibles. On 948 and 1200 saloons the wing badge was omitted, leaving a space on all except early 12/50 which featured a 12/50 badge thogh this too was droped on later models.
- Crossed flags on the rear wings.
  
  Posted By : Danial Phoenix, 14-Aug-2006, 08:01pm
  
  red cross corner to corner flag is st andrews,
  - Crossed flags on the rear wings.
    
    Posted By : Chris Taylor, 14-Aug-2006, 09:11pm
    
    They are actually nautical signalling flags although I have forgotten the meaning. I do recall that it was not exactly the most sensible, but slightly amusing! I'll try and recall where it was and look it up.
    The only obvious nautical connection I can think of was that the Herald was named after Alec Dick's yacht. (He was the Standard Triumph Managing Director at the time of the development and launch of the Herald. He was ousted when Leyland took over).
    - Crossed flags on the rear wings.
      
      Posted By : Ian Mulford, 14-Aug-2006, 09:15pm
      
      VS apparently. V means "I require assistance (not distress)" and S "my engines are going full speed astern"
      
      V =
      S =
      - Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Chris Taylor, 14-Aug-2006, 09:41pm
        
        Thanks for the enlightenment. Since my previous post I've been upstairs to consult Graham Robson's Herald and Vitesse history (no mention of badges) but does recount the Herald name coming from Alick Dick's yacht. Mike Costigan's originality guide (not infallible!) has this to say:
        "The 948 Heralds had no supplementary boot badging, except the earliest coupes which declared their body style in script. These early cars also displayed the Herald name in gothic script on the rear wings, but from November 1959 (Y4604) both these features were deleted, although the rear wings now displayed a crossed flags logo which showed the naval colurs for 'S' and 'V' - presumably reflecting the car's Standard Vignale origins. This crossed flags badge was fitted to all subsequent coupes and all Herald convertibles until early 1971 when it was deleted from the last batch of 13/60s."
        The Vitesse convertible prototype 3VC also had them, but all production Vitesses had an extended stainless waistline strip right to the rear lamps. The 12/50 had "12/50" badges in this postion as well as on the boot until September 1966.
        
        That much I knew (in little bits before) and I had hear about the "require assistance" and "going astern" explanation, but had never seen the two put together in one place. WHY they should have been chosen is puzzling. I don't buy the "Standard Vignale" bit. While the company was indeed STANDARD Triumph, and the last Vanguards were restyled by Vignale, I am not aware of any Vignale connection with the Herald. Michelotti was working independently by the time he styled the Herald.
        That said, why should anyone choose naval flags for S and V if they understood the naval meaning? Humorous to some, but not so funny with the earliest Herald's reliabilty scares to live down!
        Mind you, marketing bods do sometimes overlook things like this, sometimes in time, sometimes not. (Think Nissan Cedric and other Japanese horrors, but the Rolls Royce Silver Mist name was dropped in time when someone pointed out that "Mist" means manure in german!)
        
        I am intrigued by the comment that the badges are not the same on both sides. Are you sure? I've never looked that closely but always understood the badges were identical both sides. If not, are they different letters, and what is the naval meaning?
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 14-Aug-2006, 10:03pm
        
        My understanding is that the crossed flags do indeed represent S for 'Standard-Triumph' and V for Vignale.
        
        I don't know, without some in-depth research, exactly when Giovanni Michelotti stopped working at the Vignale design studio, but that he penned the Herald sometime in September 1957.
        
        The story in Robson's books about Harry Webster dropping in to Michelotti's Torino studio whilst on holiday with his family, is only partly accurate, as he never mentions Martin Tustin, who had a great deal to do with the real origins of the Herald, but is almost never mentioned, with Webster usually getting all the credit.
        
        The true story has appeared in Triumph World, but has no doubt been missed by many
        who regard Robson's words as gospel.
        
        Incidentally, let's not forget the Mitsubishi Colt 'Starion', which is supposedly, a Japanese attempt at pronouncing 'Stallion'...
        
        And also the Toyota MR2 which in French is pronounced 'Merde', effectively 'Crap'.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Phil Grimble, 14-Aug-2006, 10:56pm
        
        Or the Nova which in Spanish translates as won't go, and the Mitsubishi Pajero, again in Spanish translates as w***er, apparently.
        Re the flags, haven't a clue, I'm afraid.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Knut Braathen, 15-Aug-2006, 07:53am
        
        Hello all, and thanks for the input. Graham Robsons book mentions the crossed flags in his book. There is a picture of a convertible on one of the pages, but he leaves it to the readers to find out what they mean. I have different flags on my car. (It is now parked outside my summerhouse, and I eill tak shots this coming weekend and show it here on the pages coming sunday/monday.)
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Nico Poortvliet, 15-Aug-2006, 08:59am
        
        Some different thoughts about the crossed flags......
        
        It WAS also my opinion that S stood for Standard en V for Vignale, UNTIL a few months ago when I saw a Ferrari 250 GTW 2+2 on a classic show. This Ferrari is also a Michelotti/Vignale design. AND it had "our"crossed flags on the boot lid!!
        
        I really can't beleive that Ferrari did place a sign on its cars meaning "Standard-Vignale". In my opinion the crossed flags do mean "Stabilimento Vignale". Translated fron Italian into English something like "Viganle Works".
        
        Who can give the final word? Perhaps some one familiar in the Ferrari scene? Let me know!
        
        Regards,
        
        Nico Poortvliet
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 16-Aug-2006, 05:22pm
        
        Posted By : Nico Poortvliet, 15-Aug-2006, 08:59am
        
        Some different thoughts about the crossed flags......
        
        It WAS also my opinion that S stood for Standard en V for Vignale, UNTIL a few months ago when I saw a Ferrari 250 GTW 2+2 on a classic show. This Ferrari is also a Michelotti/Vignale design. AND it had "our"crossed flags on the boot lid!!
        
        I really can't beleive that Ferrari did place a sign on its cars meaning "Standard-Vignale". In my opinion the crossed flags do mean "Stabilimento Vignale". Translated fron Italian into English something like "Viganle Works".
        
        Who can give the final word? Perhaps some one familiar in the Ferrari scene? Let me know!
        
        Regards,
        
        Nico Poortvliet
        
        Well, back to the question at hand, I am sure that Nico took a good close look at that Ferrari and is quite capable of telling the difference between 'our' flags and Ferrari's other flags...so ignoring for a moment, any funny nautical terms...it would appear, that the bods at Standard-Triumph intended the flags to represent the letters S & V, or S-V, which we are (for now) taking to denote: "Stabilimento Vignale", or Vignale 'Stable' rather than the previously accepted: "Standard-Vignale".
        
        To me, (at this stage), that seems like a reasonable assumption, if indeed the exact same flags do appear on other manufacturer's vehicles that were also designed at the same studios...I do recall in the depths of my memory that the flags also appear on such cars as the Standard Sportsman, (1957?), the Triumph Italia and to the best of my recollection, the Ferrari America or is it Superamerica? (If I find my photos, I will know for sure).
        
        The plot thickens
        
        Regards
        
        L&195;&169;on
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 16-Aug-2006, 06:59pm
        
        You're doing it again!
        
        Fight it, Leon! It's not British!
        
        John
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Nico Poortvliet, 16-Aug-2006, 08:09pm
        
        I'm rather sure the Ferrari at the 2006 Antwerp Classic Car Show did not bear the attached "common" Ferrari / Farina badge. Why didn't I make a close up pic.....must have been the excitement of spotting a supercar bearing the same badge as my humble Herald Convertible. Second chance at the 2007 Show???
        
        Nico
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 17-Aug-2006, 00:09am
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 16-Aug-2006, 6:59pm
        
        You're doing it again!
        
        Fight it, Leon! It's not British!
        
        John
        
        Er, what do you mean John?
        
        Hmmm, I did some research today and there is a lot of stuff on the Vignale website, but it isn't their official badge which is a V with a church on it.
        
        And Michelotti did have strong links with Vignale and he did design the Ferrari America!
        
        So now all I have to do, is find the photo of that car, which I have somewhere.
        
        Best Regards,
        
        L&195;&169;on
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 17-Aug-2006, 00:20am
        
        Leon,
        You may have missed my earlier post to you:
        http://www.tssc.org.uk/messageboard.asp?board=vite...
        
        American message board posters do this all the time - copy the posts that they reply to.
        Annoys me! Wastes space on the screen and presumably 'bandwidth', whatever that is.
        Doesn't happen on UK boards, maybe we have the knause to look at the post just above.
        Maybe I'm turning into a GOM.
        
        John
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 17-Aug-2006, 00:29am
        
        Whaddya mean turning into a GOM? (kidding John, just kidding but you left yourself open to that)...
        
        Huh, I didn't know that how to spell knause? but then again. I don't think I've ever seen it written down before...
        
        Curiouser and curiouser.
        
        L&195;&169;on
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 17-Aug-2006, 00:40am
        
        Oh yes and I rather like the connection, albeit somewhat tenuous between Ferrari and Triumph...I have recently got hold of an 'international' VCR and 'international' TV which allow me to watch my PAL videotapes again, and last night watched La Passione once more!
        
        A great gearhead film.
        
        Then there is also the Alfa Romeo link with the mid-30's Triumph copy of the Alfa engine.
        
        I like to think that is one reason that we can get so passionate out our Triumphs, ie: they have some fiery Italian Blood in their heritage.
        
        And before scorn is heaped upon my fantasies, remember the 1993 Aston Martin Vignale...
        
        The only reason that it used the defunct Vignale name was because Ford now own both Aston Martin, and Ghia, which previously acquired Vignale via De Tomaso.
        
        That is even more tenuous!
        
        Arrividerchi
        
        L&195;&169;on
  - Crossed flags on the rear wings.
    
    Posted By : Doug Paterson, 15-Aug-2006, 06:34pm
    
    The St Andrews Cross is a white cross on a blue background - I've no idea what red on white is.
    - Crossed flags on the rear wings.
      
      Posted By : John Davies, 15-Aug-2006, 07:12pm
      
      A diagonal red cross on white - St.Patrick, begorrah!
      
      The Ferrari bears the crossed Ferrari and Pininfarina flags.
      See below, found on the Wikipedia page of one RD Smith (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Rdsmith4/ga...)
      
      John
      As someone else has as their signoff, "All I know I learned thorugh Googling!"
      Fast though, ain't !?
      
      Crossed flags on the rear wings.
      - Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 15-Aug-2006, 07:18pm
        
        Another car that bears crosed flags is the Corvette.
        One is a chequered flag, and the other has the Chevrolet 'bowtie' emblem and a fleur-de-lys.
        This has appeared in many forms and designs. This is just one.
        
        Your task, should you choose to accept, is to find out the origin of the latter.
        This message will.... oh, you get the idea.
        
        John
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Jonathan Reed, 15-Aug-2006, 07:49pm
        
        Bore them down the pub.....
        
        http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/history/emblem...
        
        http://www.idavette.net/trivia.htm
        
        Home entertainment. Flags and porn.......
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 15-Aug-2006, 08:07pm
        
        Better picture.
        F & P flags
        
        Come on, keep up!
        
        Jkhn
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 15-Aug-2006, 08:11pm
        
        And that red diamond on a white background is "F" for Ferrari.
        "P" is the Blue Peter flag, white square on blue - so why is the Pininfarina onan 'F' flag?
        
        John
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 16-Aug-2006, 11:45am
        
        There was a story some years ago that the crossed flags actually stood for: "I am operating astern propulsion" ie a kind of reference to the rear wheel drive Triumphs...
        Colin
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Ian Mulford, 16-Aug-2006, 12:37pm
        
        Try reading the whole thread and you'd find it's been mentioned before
        
        http://www.tssc.org.uk/messageboard.asp?board=hera...
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 16-Aug-2006, 02:20pm
        
        "my engines are going full speed astern" is not quite the same as "I am operating astern propulsion...."
        My post states I have a rear propulsion source, the post you refer to states that I am going full speed astern...
        It's a bit like telling someone on a club run that we'll follow the road from a to b to c then return using the same route in reverse... sore on the neck if you read it wrong....
        Colin
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Ian Mulford, 16-Aug-2006, 02:37pm
        
        But what I said is the meaning of the flags... how can it be interpreted any other way?
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 16-Aug-2006, 07:53pm
        
        "But what I said is the meaning of the flags... how can it be interpreted any other way?"
        
        Any minute now I expect the Spanish Inquisition.... I'm a heretic....
        Given the fact that perhaps those brainy boffins at Triumph had a sense of humour and a little bit of poetic licence, we end up with a possible alternative to the set in stone naval meaning of the flags.
        It reminds me of the old story that a Royal Navy warship, after some time spent fruitlessly trying to decipher a string of flags flying from a fishing trawler, sent the query "what is the significance of the message you are flying?"
        The trawler replied: "Regretfully we do not know, the flags just smelt of fish..."
        Colin
        
        Crossed flags on the rear wings.
        
        Posted By : John Davies, 16-Aug-2006, 11:32pm
        
        Jonathan,
        Thank you - I'm educated!
        
        But a little disappointed - the fleur-de-lys was just a borrowed French symbol to reflect the 'Chevrolet' name, and the 'bow-tie' ...... came from some wall paper?????
        
        Weird!
        
        John