Section : Electrical Equipment

Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 07-Jan-2006, 05:06pm

• Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

  Posted By : Kevin Rochfort, 07-Jan-2006, 05:45pm

  Colin,
  
  I assume that the High-Torque motor is one of the pre-engaged types (with a solenoid on the side of the motor).
  
  Knowing that you've changed the wiring loom on the car, have you remembered to wire the second solenoid (the one on the starter motor) to the ignition switch.
  
  The easiest option is to run a wire from the "start" terminal on the original solenoid to the start terminal on the starter motor solenoid. Alternatively, connect the two terminals on the new starter motor together.
  
  By doing this, when you turn the ignition switch, the first solenoid operates and connects 12V to the main power terminal of the starter motor, and simultaneously to the second solenoid. The second solenoid will then operate and apply power to the motor itself.
  
  If you've remembered this wiring, then the other issue might be the engine earth connection - is it well fitted, and are both ends of the strap connected to clean bare metal ?
  
  Good luck
  Kevin

  • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

    Posted By : John Davies, 07-Jan-2006, 06:40pm

    Colijn,
    The Hi-Torque I have, from Jigsaw, has a single high-amp (very thick) cable from the bulkhead solenoid to the terminal on the starter. A thinner jumper wire from there goes to another terminal on the body of the starter that supplies the solenoid that pre-engages the starter pinion. No seperate wiring to the pre-engaging solenoid.
    
    As I understand it, the supply to the starter windings is not connected until the pinion IS engaged. A mechanical switch inside the starter does this. That switch has to deal with very high amps as does the bulkhead switch so maybe it will be prone to failure. But as it will be a much more modern design and will be Japanese made (all these starters are made by the Denso Corp., Japan) you would need to be unlucky.
    
    If direct current from a fresh battery to the starter on the bench, via high-amp cables and good contacts at battery and starter (v.important), does nothing, then I would blame the starter. But the bulkhead solenoid is also fault prone, so a resistance check?
    
    John
    
    
    
    

    • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

      Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 07-Jan-2006, 07:00pm

      Thanks Kevin and John; the starter is pre-engaged and the battery strap is wired from bulkhead solenoid to both starter solenoid and starter motor and when originally fitted spun the engine superbly. One new wiring loom later the starter refuses to turn, but the old starter when replaced turns the engine albeit slowly. I would have suspected that the new starter requires less power than that. The bulkhead solenoid clicks and current is reaching the starter terminals. I had also suspected the engine earth as I've replaced the original strap with one from a Spitfire 1300 which not only runs from battery to bulkhead but along the back of the battery to the engine bellhousing/ backplate and replaces a second strap which used to be fitted between backplate and bulkhead, and this is the only deviation from original setup other than the new starter. The short front strap at the engine frontplate is still connected to the chassis. I can't understand why nothing happens at all at the starter and it's very disappointing - a bit like some guy at NASA pushing the button and the rocket fails to ignite....
      Colin

      • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

        Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 07-Jan-2006, 07:46pm

        And - as of 19.35 tonight - a bench test reveals that a good healthy battery connected with good leads produces a lot of sparks when the earth is applied, but not a cheep from the motor. Not bad, that... bought new, stored safely, fitted correctly, turns twice, then dies and never turns again. More pounds down the drain.
        So: having nothing to lose I dismantled it and guess what? Rusted solid. How on earth it has got to this state without ever seeing outdoors I do not know, but I've spent the last two hours derusting and oiling everything and some of it was in a very sad state indeed... the only thing I can think of is when the new engine block was flushed prior to being refilled, the tap on the side of the block being above the starter has allowed water in around the motor. And these things are designed for off-road?
        It's now rebuilt and awaiting the morrow...
        

        • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

          Posted By : Peter Lewis, 03-Feb-2006, 09:30pm

          there are 3 starter types
          1 bendix driven pinion takes a lot of current and relies on inertia to engage, very high pinion loads
          gives low efficiency worn helix and pitted teeth.
          
          2 pre engaged which has piggy back solenoid attached to the motor it is engaged in mesh by the
          solenoid before the current winds the motor up takes less current than 1 as the pinion loads are less
          the solenoid on these can rust up the core becomes sluggish
          
          3 Geared motor,, solenoid pre engages the pinion as in 2 but its a small very high speed motor
          that derives it s torque through a gearbox,, these are normally the most reliable unit you can get
          most are jap nippon denso and should go for ever... see pictures on canley site whats yours called peter

          • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

            Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 04-Feb-2006, 08:15am

            There'll be an article appearing in The Courier on this subject over the next few months, complete with photos. and yes - I DO require the alloy spacer!
            Colin

        • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

          Posted By : John Davies, 04-Feb-2006, 09:38am

          Colin,
          Just re-read this post, after clearing out some recent magazines. TRs suffer the same problem - well they would, wouldn't they, except that access is much worse. Someone wrote to TRaction suggesting a mod to that tap. Solder a short piece of tube into the tap, so that a length of pipe can be slipped over it when draining the block, to carry the flow over the starter and avoid flooding it.
          
          Apologies to that TR owner for lack of credit, but the magazine has gone to a better place - my hospital's outpatients waiting area!
          John
          
          PS Of course a copy of TRaction laid over the starter for the water to run off would be just as good. Courier useless for this purpose - too small and binding wrong. Wake up Bernie! Give us a really useful magazine! J.

          • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

            Posted By : Colin Lindsay, 04-Feb-2006, 12:26pm

            SACRILEGE! You can't insult people by using The Courier for that sort of thing... Don't you realise there are areas of the country where even a caricature of Bernard Robinson would lead to widespread rioting?
            Colin

            • Hi torque starter motors - do they stick?

              Posted By : Geoffrey Griffiths, 06-Feb-2006, 11:39am

              Colin
              I fitted a Hi Torque starter motor to my Mk1 about 12 months ago. I purchased it from Canley and fitted it soon after. There were some problems with fitting (access to the bolts) and also the solenoid had been fitted wrongly, however nothing which could not be overcome. Something struck me whilst fitting this motor and that was the earth path for the motor is via the bolts and body of the motor to the engine back plate. My motor being new was nicely painted and at first wouldn't turn. Then a few sparks where the earth path was eventually making contact, and then it twigged. Bloody fool I thought so I removed the motor (more pain with the access) cleaned up the faces back to bare metal fitted a heat shield over the solenoid wire and refitted the motor. No problems since.
              The heat shield was installed because I have a S/S exhaust manifold running very close to the starter solenoid and thought it might cook in time. I did write some thoughts about this experience and I can reproduce them if you would like to use them in the article. You can email me you need them.-------geoff.g.griffiths@magnox.co.uk