Originality Issues
Posted By : Jonathan Reed, 14-Jul-2006, 09:29pm
Here are some views from a while back:
http://www.tssc.org.uk/messageboard.asp?board=vite...
You'll not get a consensus though!
http://www.tssc.org.uk/messageboard.asp?board=vite...
You'll not get a consensus though!
Originality Issues
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 14-Jul-2006, 10:11pm
As soon as a car rolled off the production line and got non-Triumph petrol in the tank, non-Stanpart air in the tyres, a new battery, a change of oil
etc - it departed from "original" ergo all our cars are non-original. Take the plastic off the door panels and it's not orignal, drive it and it's not
original but who wants a car you can't drive? I don't (I appreciate there are those who do)
Concours isn't original, no car left the factory anything remotely like any concours car.
It's all a bit of a pointless debate really but fun to watch. I mean where do you stop? It's OK to replace wearing parts but not improve anything? So 2 pack paint is out and modern tyres then - it's an impossible and slightly anal arguement really.
I think I've improved my car because I've modified it and I know that because I like it more - that's good enough for me and if others like it that's great too. If people don't well great - I've got some Stanpart air I can sell them
Concours isn't original, no car left the factory anything remotely like any concours car.
It's all a bit of a pointless debate really but fun to watch. I mean where do you stop? It's OK to replace wearing parts but not improve anything? So 2 pack paint is out and modern tyres then - it's an impossible and slightly anal arguement really.
I think I've improved my car because I've modified it and I know that because I like it more - that's good enough for me and if others like it that's great too. If people don't well great - I've got some Stanpart air I can sell them
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Originality Issues
Posted By : Steve Cureton, 14-Jul-2006, 10:26pm
I like my non-original car - if the next owner doesn't like it (assuming I sell it on) then he can put it back to original spec if he wants. Sod what anyody else thinks!-
Originality Issues
Posted By : Dan Owen, 17-Jul-2006, 12:03pm
So long as mods are sensible (ie no V8 Heralds, though I suppose if that's what turns you on...) and the workmanship is good, what's the problem? I think the issue has probably arisen because we've all seen bodged mods, such as hacked-about wiring with bits of old mains cable spliced in... I'm sure we all have our favourites!-
Originality Issues
Posted By : Nigel Gibbins, 17-Jul-2006, 12:21pm
Hey guys... you seem to be missing the point of the original post I think. It's not to do with whether modifications should be allowed or are a good/bad idea. It's about whether the club should be classifying cars as original or modified.
If a consensus is that it this should happen then the debate can then be where the line is drawn.-
Originality Issues
Posted By : Jason Chinn, 17-Jul-2006, 12:36pm
Try and define "modified" first and I think we'll all end up slitting our wrists in a few days
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Originality Issues
Posted By : Ben Hutchings, 17-Jul-2006, 03:20pm
Interesting, albeit exhausting debate this. Modified or custom...
I was discussing this with me cousin last week. He's into Porcs and was saying that in his view, putting say a flat 6 in a 356 or beetle is a mod.. it's like a logical progression. We agreed that the same goes for putting a straight 6 into a spit, or a 2.5 6 into a GT. Again it seems like the obvious next step and sort of 'acceptable'.
When it came to putting ford / V engines in trumps, or Imprezza blocks in old 911's, we came to the conclusion that these 'customs', and these cars should be viewed as kit-cars and classified accordingly.
Horses 4 courses, etc, one man's meat.. blaa blaa whatever..
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Originality Issues
Posted By : John Davies, 17-Jul-2006, 06:34pm
Martin,
What a piffling idea.
If it has a 13/60 chassis, a Vitesse bulkhead, a Herald rear body tub, a Tr6 tuned, 2.5 litre saloon engine, has GRP doors, roof and a Vitesse bonnet, is it not still a Triumph? If it's a space framed, Ford engined, (beautiful) Spitfire bodied delight, what makes it NOT a Triumph?
It's this attitude that REALLY makes me worry for the future of Triumph clubs.
John
What a piffling idea.
If it has a 13/60 chassis, a Vitesse bulkhead, a Herald rear body tub, a Tr6 tuned, 2.5 litre saloon engine, has GRP doors, roof and a Vitesse bonnet, is it not still a Triumph? If it's a space framed, Ford engined, (beautiful) Spitfire bodied delight, what makes it NOT a Triumph?
It's this attitude that REALLY makes me worry for the future of Triumph clubs.
John
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Originality Issues
Posted By : Danial Phoenix, 17-Jul-2006, 08:46pm
if it looks good do it-
Originality Issues
Posted By : Vin Poonwassie, 17-Jul-2006, 09:17pm
My spit might be considered custom, but I like to think of it as orinal period, has an original mk1 spit body tub, with original mk1 spit doors with turn-to-open door handles, original tr5 PI engine, original tr2 rear side/brake lights (ok - with led indicators embedded in them) original MK1 spit grill, original tr6 gearbox, original gt6 mk2 bonnet ( ok with pimple lights added). Other bits are non-period minor bits bolt-ons like steering wheel, front valence, interior trim, seats etc
so I guess it's modified to the period - so no flared wheel arches etc. what they could have done at the time?
yes, original
yada yada yada, bada bing, bada boom....................
ps, mine is ever so slightly modified I guess
(to answer the original thread...)
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Originality Issues
Posted By : Martin Frosh, 17-Jul-2006, 11:31pm
Phew -such passions and sensitivities - Thanks Nigel Gibbins, you got the point - which was whether a club - any marque club - should record the originality or otherwise of Members cars. Not to do so mayl legitimise what may be a fundamental alteration, and, with the passage of time may endorse (un)originality)
Lets not get into a debate about the shape and colour of the windscreen washer bottle - the question is about "recording" not definitions of standard or not !-
Originality Issues
Posted By : John Davies, 18-Jul-2006, 00:05am
Martin,
Many say we live in a nanny state - you apparently want to belong to a nanny club.
It is not the function of the TSSC to provide an opinion on the authenticity of a particular car, that is a function of the FIA in its capacity to licence 'historic' cars. The TSSC exists to promote the interests of its members. .
It is up to the seller and buyer to determine the authenticity of a car. It may be a useful service for the club to offer the services of 'experts' to do so - fine. But not to be an authority that regulates the restoration or modification of cars, like English Heritage dictating the colour of someone's front door.
I misunderstood your original proposal. When I called it 'piffling', I thought it was an idle thought without depth. Clearly this is not so, and the "debate in some circles" has led to a serious and clearly political attempt to alter the nature of the TSSC. Gods know, it needs altering, but not in this direction, which has a disturbing, fascist taint to it. Allowed to continue it can only cause further break-up of the Triumph community, which I have done what I can to bring together.
So I oppose the proposal.
John
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Originality Issues
Posted By : William Murray, 18-Jul-2006, 01:18am
IMHO sad and worrying.
Personally, I think our collective energies would be better employed doing what we can to revitalise the classic car movement and raise interest outside our cosy but parochial and ever-shrinking world.
If this is a portent of what the future holds then I'm afraid the outlook is very bleak. More and more pointless arguments about things less and less people care about until we get so far up our own backsides that we disappear from view altogether.
I've been a member of TSSC since 1985 -- albeit with a seven year gap between 1992 and 1999 -- and it all that time I'm not aware of ever having been confused about what constitutes an original car and what constitutes a modified car.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just can't see the point of it at all -- especially as there are considerably more important issues that we should really be trying to deal with.
Bill
Personally, I think our collective energies would be better employed doing what we can to revitalise the classic car movement and raise interest outside our cosy but parochial and ever-shrinking world.
If this is a portent of what the future holds then I'm afraid the outlook is very bleak. More and more pointless arguments about things less and less people care about until we get so far up our own backsides that we disappear from view altogether.
I've been a member of TSSC since 1985 -- albeit with a seven year gap between 1992 and 1999 -- and it all that time I'm not aware of ever having been confused about what constitutes an original car and what constitutes a modified car.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I just can't see the point of it at all -- especially as there are considerably more important issues that we should really be trying to deal with.
Bill
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Originality Issues
Posted By : Martin Frosh, 18-Jul-2006, 04:52am
Enough - enough ! All I did was to ask a simple question for information, because half a world away attitudes might be different, and I was keen to know what you guys thought.
I did not expect - or want - to have this innocent question turned into politics, nor are the somewhat patronising responses partucularly welcome.
So - having learned what your messageboard is for, thanks for the effort --- and let's just forget it shall we ?