Section : New Members

New Member - first problem

Posted By : Kevin Sheahan, 16-Nov-2006, 10:13pm

Hello All!
A couple of weeks ago I went and bought myself a GT6 Mk III, a great looking car, this was more a purchase from the heart rather than the head. I have always liked Triumphs and about 20 years ago I had a Spitfire 1500.

Yesterday, I took the GT6 on it's first motorway journey (Reading to South London), all was well on the way up but on the way home it just lost all power on the M25, luckily I was able to coast on to the hard shoulder. I was recovered OK but now I need to sort out the problem, I guess it could be electrical or fuel or worse? I 've checked there is fuel in the SU reservoirs but I'm wondering whether it's likely to be an electrical problem, because I thought I noticed a very slight hesitation occasionally. Would a duff condenser cause sudden loss of power? Any advice would be appreciated.
Regards
Kevin

Followups :

New Member - first problem

Posted By : Jeremy Wilkinson, 16-Nov-2006, 10:22pm

Hi Kevin,

Welcome ! I am a new recruit myself & my spitfire died on me on the first real trip.......!!! I'm sure your GT6 will soon be back on form - will it start & run since this episode ? Does sound like a fuel problem ? My spitfire completely died & I traced it back to the T-pipe connecting the carbs back to the rocker box cover having a split pipe & letting air in - copious duck tape & insulating tape cured the problem & since then I've had no probs whatsoever.
Anyway there are plenty more experienced club members who I'm sure will be keen to offer advice & help - I hope you are back on the road soon without too much hassle !
Best Wishes
J
- New Member - first problem
  
  Posted By : Kevin Sheahan, 16-Nov-2006, 10:40pm
  
  Thanks Jeremy, the guy who did the recovery thought it was a fuel problem and I can detect a petrol smell around the engine, thought that might be normal though! The engine turns but doesn't fire at the moment.
  Regards
  Kevin
  - New Member - first problem
    
    Posted By : James Fotheringham, 16-Nov-2006, 11:27pm
    
    Sounds like Ignition, have you checked for a spark?
    Have you examined the rotor arm and dissy cap?
    
    Remove a plug, reattach it to it HT Lead. Then using a pair of insulated pliers hold the spark plug v.close to the block.
    Get someone to turn engine over and you should see a spark arcing to the block.
    If not, it's ignition!
    
    Cheers, James
    - New Member - first problem
      
      Posted By : Jeremy Wilkinson, 17-Nov-2006, 09:12am
      
      Hi Again,
      
      James advice is spot-on for ignition - I suppose the only other thing fuel wise is the fuel filter/pump ? But then again it sounds like there's plenty of fuel getting to the carbs - if that's the case & its not firing then I reckon your faulty ignition coil sounds like an easy place to start. The previous tech issue trails have been of great use to me in the short time that i have been a member - have a look at coil issues on the GT6/Spitfire or indeed any Triumph section & see if the symptoms match your own ?
      
      Is your GT6 standard engine wise or has it been tweaked & modified ? - As you say they are brilliant cars & I bought mine on a similar heart over mind decision......despite the colour & no hood !
      
      Let me know how you get on ?
      
      Cheers
      
      J
      - New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Lilley, 17-Nov-2006, 04:27pm
        
        I'm suprised your rescuer diden't check for a spark. Had the same problem on my first trip out, & all it turned out to be was the flexi condenser wire had come away in the distributor. Quick call for a service pack to TSSC, & no problems in over 2,000miles since, well apart from a gearbox overhaul!!
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : James Fotheringham, 17-Nov-2006, 07:25pm
        
        Good advice, however unless you desperately want to support the club shop, I would steer clear they are very expensive!
        
        Canley Classics sell a similar kit, which is much better VFM - http://www.canleyclassics.com/featuredproducts.asp...
        
        The club kit is damn shy of &163;60, the CC is &194;&163;40 and includes more service items!
        
        I'm sure the purse strings will win through
        
        Edit: Just noticed the CC kit doesn't include a coil, but you can pick one up for a tenner!
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Mills, 17-Nov-2006, 07:45pm
        
        Hi James
        
        The Club shop may currently be more expensive on some items than can be obtained elsewhere
        
        It's not there to compete directly with our partners and traders selling parts etc for your Triumph, but to supply accessories and merchandise so you can further enhance your car and enjoyment.
        
        As you may have seen, earlier this month we posted a thread regarding the review of how the Club shop works and the products currently available and items you may wish to be available, this thread has been very positive and constructive and will be taken into account during this long and exhaustive process.
        
        It is worth mentioning that there have been many times when TSSC Club Shop has been competitive with other organisations, we need to consider Quality, Service and as important Back UP, particularly comparing like for like and service needing to be considered.
        
        The final plus point is that the profits made from the Club Shop go back into the Club which enables it to provide and maintain service levels for it's members.
        
        Kind Regards
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : James Fotheringham, 17-Nov-2006, 09:16pm
        
        Hi Chris,
        
        I do remember that thread, and indeed partook in the discussion.
        
        I was also not having a 'dig' at the club shop.
        
        I understand the economies of scale, profit margins etc do not lend themselves to a smallish club shop compared to a largish trader such as Canley.
        
        My motive was merely to save a new member a few pennies.
        
        Regards,
        
        James
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Don Cook, 17-Nov-2006, 09:24pm
        
        Don't you just love our cars!
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Kevin Sheahan, 17-Nov-2006, 10:55pm
        
        Thanks for all the advice everyone.
        
        I think I've narrowed it down an electrical problem, since I couldn't get a spark from No 1 spark plug. I used a jump lead to hold the plug up (other end earthed) so I could see it from the drivers seat, I expected to see a blue spark but nothing. I did get a set of points & condenser from Halfords (intermotor items) however, the condenser was a really tight fit and was butting right up against the rotor shaft. When I compared it to the original, the intermotor condenser is fractionally bigger in diameter. So I'm taking it back tomorrow.
        
        I may well need to replace the coil, I've noticed that there is a label on the existing coil 'ICR 0 50 12v use with 1.5 ohm ballast' does this mean it is non-standard and if I get the standard 6v is this likely to be a problem? Any advice gratefully received.
        Kevin
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Leon Guyot, 17-Nov-2006, 11:42pm
        
        It is probably the condensor, the reproduction condensors available nowadays seem to be very poor quality c/w original ones.
        
        The same is true of the caps, the rotors and the points...
        
        All of the above is the reason that I now have a Mallory distributor with Petronix Hall-Effect magnetic ignition installed on my Triumph.
        
        Best Regards
        
        L&195;&169;on
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : James Dennison, 18-Nov-2006, 09:13am
        
        Next time you are at your local motor factors have a look for a spark test gadget - not sure what its called!
        
        Unplug the ignition lead from a plug, stick this thing on top of the plug and re-attach the ignition lead to the top. When you turn the engine over you should see the spark through the plastic.
        
        Cost about 2 quid and means you can check the spark without a helper if you crane your neck enough or use a mirror.
        
        Welcome to the joys of Triumph ownership!
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Lilley, 18-Nov-2006, 02:40pm
        
        Just checked my invoices & no I diden't buy my service kit from the TSSC. Canleys do one for &163;39.99 job lot.
        
        RU listening TSSC?
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Mills, 18-Nov-2006, 06:32pm
        
        Hi Chris
        
        Firstly the kits are completly different, the TSSC kit is genuine Lucas components except for the NGK Spark Plugs whilst the Canley kit is of several different manufacturers.
        
        The kits are also different constituation, the TSSC kit contains a High Performance Coil whilst the Canley kit does not have a coil, but has Air filters, Oil Filter, Distributor Cap and a Fan belt
        
        * Lucas Speedleads
        * Condensor
        * Rotor Arm
        * Distributor Cap
        * Points
        * High Performance Coil
        * Spark Plugs
        
        http://www.tssc.org.uk/catalog.asp?category=200204...
        
        Includes -
        
        * Oil Filter
        * Air Filter/Filters
        * Spark Plugs
        * Points
        * Condensor
        * Rotor Arm
        * Distributor cap
        * Ignition leads
        * Fan belt
        
        http://www.canleyclassics.com/featuredproducts.asp...
        
        Therefore as I've pointed out in a previous posting, It is important to check and compare Like for Like.
        
        Cheers
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Lilley, 18-Nov-2006, 08:16pm
        
        You make a good point & I stand to be corrected, however, I ask the question, are Lucas parts really that much better than other parts on the market. Like I said earlier, 2000 miles of faultless motoring using cheaper copies. I'd be interested to hear of other members experiences on wheather Lucas is the best option?
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Mills, 18-Nov-2006, 09:03pm
        
        Hi Chris
        
        The point regarding whether Lucas verses Other Manufacturers product is any different is something we'll both find difficult to prove, But if that was always the case, we'd all be buying the cheapest item available regardless of other circumstances, which would likely be made in the Far East and whilst healthy competition is good for business, unfair competition and or direct copies of items does not help the UK workforce or Triumph owners keeping their cars on the road.
        
        My point, which I know you've grasped is Please compare similar items on both Quality, Service and Back Up against Price and against what you or I are prepared to pay for a reasonable product.
        
        Cheers
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : James Fotheringham, 18-Nov-2006, 09:10pm
        
        I don't see that items being 'Lucas' is any better than any other manufacturers, that is to say they are not made side by side, and just boxed differentley, as is the case with many items. I have purchased New "Lucas" Rotor arms before, twice the rotor arm disintegrated within 2 minutes of being used, the 3rd came from an OEM supplier and is still going strong!
        Lucas today is not the same as Lucas was back in 1960/70! Even when they were known as a "The prince of darkness"
        
        In the Canley kit, the items are all very good and certainly no worse than what would have been on your Triumph originally, Dave Pearson is no mug and wouldn't supply crap, as he'd only have to refund disgruntled customers. Equally the extra service items on the Canley kit are just as important I have used a similar kit on a Spitfire mk1, and it was excellent
        
        In fairness to TSSC the NGK plugs are much better than Champions, however I'd argue the super leads and sports coil are unnecessary on 90% of club cars, and the use they would receive.
        
        I can't quite understand why the TSSC kit doesn't include all service items, but just electrical.
        As for comparing like for like, whether the club likes it or not, I think most customers would compare the two as like for like 'service' kits, and would come to the conclusion that the TSSC option is poorer VFM.
        
        On balance though, I think most of us are big enough boys and girls to make our own minds up.
        
        Also Chris, what does this service and backup entail?
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Taylor, 19-Nov-2006, 01:16am
        
        In my experience with Lucas electrics on a number of Triumphs, I really found it hard to understand the "Prince of Darkness" moniker. as I have always had exemplary reliability from Lucas electrics, but now having read this month's Courier, I now understand that the term started with Lucas motorbike electrics, and a problem that might have been as much about what Triumph (bikes) specified for its charging systems. (The other Lucas reliability glitch was probably the fuel injection system, which the Americans never enjoyed!)
        
        That said, it does appear that Lucas REPLACEMENT parts (or at least some) are not of the same quality as original manufacture, although I have heard that this may also affect replacement parts for Delco distributors to almost the same degree. Unless you know what you are looking for, (and this is not much help when buying by post!) it is hard to tell the quality of what you are buying. I'm not sure if the Lucas packaging shows country of origin, but understand that some of the quality issues started to occur when manufacture or sourcing of parts went overseas.
        If I had the choice of items in Lucas packaging, I'd always buy an "New Old Stock" one over a brand new one. That said, there DO seem to be reasonable quality replacement parts avaiable. I've never had problems with Intermotor points, or condensors, even though they do not seem to be of quite the same quality as "old fashioned" Lucas ones.
        
        As to the differences between the TSSC and Canley kits, I'm not sure they are aimed at quite the same thing. The Canley kit does seem to be those parts which are required to do a full service on the car. The TSSC kit seems geared more towards an emergency kit of parts that you might consider for a foreign tour in case of breakdown, or for doing a complete overhaul of the ignition system, which is often well overdue and well worth the effort for cars of the age of all Triumphs (26+!!)
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Jon Morton, 19-Nov-2006, 11:36am
        
        Just mooting back to the lucus monka "Prince of darkness". I belive it was in response to their slogan "Lucas, King of the road". I understood it started with their early lights, which were rather dim. It also started the slogan "Prince of the ditch".
        
        See this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Automotive
        
        Just to brighten your spirits a few jokes at Lucas expense http://www.kitcar.com/articles-kitcar/humordept/lu...
        
        and
        
        http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html scroll down to see the Lucas Replacement Wiring Harness Smoke
        
        Jon
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : James Fotheringham, 19-Nov-2006, 01:19pm
        
        In a similar vein....
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Doug Paterson, 19-Nov-2006, 09:09am
        
        Lucas parts generally are better than some of the other tosh on the market & 2000 miles trouble free motoring isn't really that far ..... yet.
        
        Sadly they are getting harder to find - after persevering with substandard ignition components I ditched them early this year in favour of a Petronix kit ..... I have to say its difficult to recommend that route enough.
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Mark Stradling, 19-Nov-2006, 09:05am
        
        I'm going to avoid the general debate and head off in a slightly different direction (hey, everyone seems to have gone a little off-topic from Kevin's origonal question).
        
        Just what IS the TSSC kit meant to be?
        
        It's listed as a service kit and includes:
        plugs - fine
        dizzy parts - fine
        leads - fine
        coil - umm...
        
        I can see the point of changing the other parts every so often (depending on vehicle usage) but the coil? I'm not sure I've ever changed my coil - regular service or nut and bolt restoration!
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Mills, 19-Nov-2006, 09:14am
        
        Hi Mark
        
        Thats the object of the review we are conducting, the Club Shop lists a total of 1624 items and stocks around 1200, we are going through each and every item to see if it is the right product, competitively priced and at the right quality and whether we should be stocking it at all.
        
        In addition we are looking at new ranges and one or two unique items which we hope to be able to offer you next year.
        
        As I'm sure you'll appreciate, it's not an overnight job.
        
        Cheers
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Chris Lilley, 19-Nov-2006, 09:27pm
        
        2000 miles in todays terms isen't very far, but I wonder what the average Triumph covers in a year? 1000? 1500?I know I service mine in the spring, so with winter now knocking, the miles for this service term are almost done & the point I was trying to make was, my experience with non lucas parts have been positive in as much as for the money spent, I've had great value for it with no problems.
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Colin Wake, 20-Nov-2006, 09:15am
        
        Over 2000 miles in 48 hours last month, and now doing about 200 miles a week in the hands of the co-owner.
        
        Proving to be a very reliable old 2000.
        
        It was fitted with new plugs/points/rotor arm/leads/semi synthetic oil/filter before we set off.
        
        All from various sources. Leads were NOS Lucas, new Lucas rotor arm failed after 3 miles, a very old and battered original one is now doing service, plugs wre NGK, point wree unipart, filter was coopers. Oil was Millers Classic Sport (Highly recommended!!!)
        
        Cheers
        
        Colin
        
        New Member - first problem
        
        Posted By : Kevin Sheahan, 20-Nov-2006, 07:38pm
        
        I replaced the condenser/points, coil & king lead on Saturday - no joy. However, installed a new rotor arm & distributor (intermotor parts)today and it's running again. Looking at the old distributor the carbon electrode was very worn compared to the new one, so that's the likely culprit.
        
        In the end I just went to my local car parts supplier - probably paid over the odds but at least they are friendly & helpful and the guy knows what a GT6 is!
        
        What have I learnt from this experience? Well:
        it's worth changing ignition parts on a newly acquired car,
        these cars are very easy to work on (experience so far!),
        take your mobile & recovery company details on a journey
        when you need parts, shop around.
        
        Thanks for all the advice.
        Regards
        Kevin